On the topic of carrying concealed weapons on campus...

[pyat]

There's a movement in the U.S. to permit students to carry concealed weapons on college campuses, in order to defend themselves against school shooters. One problem with this idea was raised by the police chief at the University of Cincinnati:

"I shoot everybody with a gun, who doesn't have a uniform on."

Comments

[catarzyna.livejournal.com]

Do you have an article on this?

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Yup!
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/14/campus.guns/index.html

[catarzyna.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[dagoski.livejournal.com]

So, basically, they're talking about legitimizing gang violence? Great. An armed society not necessarily a polite one; it's a nervous, twitchy, paranoid one. Besides, having a gun doesn't mean you're going to be able to employ it effectively in a panicked crowd. That takes a lot of training.

There is a concern on my part, though. The security situation in Philly is getting bad enough that I am thinking about a conceal carry permit. This is street crime, not anything to with a crazed shooter. Only problem is that concealing and carrying to me workplace is grounds for automatic dismissal and a criminal trespass complaint. That's not entirely fair. I'm thinking that there has to be a middle ground. That's probably one where conceal carry permits are neither just rubber stamped or entirely unobtainable, but are rather a certification process that involves rigorous training. Of course, the best solution to the local street crime is more jobs that don't require graduate degrees around here. That's what's really happening. In addition to all the firearms violence this past couple of years, young people are really starting to lose it over the no future thing. So they're just kind of ambushing people on subway platforms and beating them senseless. To lesser degree these kind of beatings have been happening on the campuses in University City. So, I'd rather have better police coverage, a more just economy and a city, state and federal government that gives just half a shit about what's going on. Guns are really damned poor alternative.

[mrs-dm.livejournal.com]

I hear your dilemma, but even considering a concealed handgun is a very strange and disturbing concept to me and most Canadians, I think. I guess it's one of those cultural things that are really different between Americans and Canadians -- something to do with the fact that a U.S. catchphrase is, "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness", whereas in Canada, it has always been, "Peace, Order and Good Government".

Nevertheless, I have to ask myself, if I were a male, living in a really dodgey area of Toronto, the kind where there is a fatal shooting about every month or so, would I feel the same way? Or would I want some means of protecting myself? I think I would have to still say no.

The reason is, I think a concealed gun would provide only a false sense of security. I think it's much more likely (and statistics show) that gun would be stolen and/or used in a suicide or violent crime. The completed suicide rate in the U.S. is much higher than in Canada, simply because there are more guns readily available. In other words, the shadow side of a gun culture seems infinitely worse than the positive aspects.

Michael Moore's movie "Bowling for Columbine" may be seen as a Liberal polemic in large parts of the U.S., but most Canadians thought it was pretty accurate.

P.S. I saw a CNN news item that, indeed, violent crime has been increasing in large cities in the U.S. for the first time in 15 or 20 years, probably due to the diversion of federal funds from local and state policing to fund the war on terrorism and the war in Iraq. Reminds me of the fall of Roman Empire.

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

See, most Canadians would not associate Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness with a culture where everyone is packing. Life implies, you know, not killing people. Liberty implies lack of coercion. Pursuit of happiness implies not pursuing fear and threats of physical force.

[kisekileia.livejournal.com]

That increase in violent crime could be related to veterans with PTSD, too.

[dagoski.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this is pretty much my own thinking. When you clear the holster, you've passed the point of bluffing. If the aggressor backs down, well and fine, but you never know. And, if you react to a perceived threat, what happens if you find out after the fact that there was no threat? Bad karma, big time. Like I said in another of Pyat's posts, if you're having this debate, you really have more serious problems going on. I think Obama was spot on about small town working class Americans clinging to guns and religion. These are both key cultural underpinnings of the rural US. And neither is harmful as such. Religion can turn corrupt and the gun trade is out of control. Guns are symbol of independence and a physical piece of heritage for many. The latter is why I almost bought an M1 Garand rifle many years ago. However, the illegal trade in the cities is very destructive in that the guns escalate feuds very quickly. I guess it's the old double standard. I trust people like me to have guns, but those freaks over there not so much.

The one thing that makes me serious consider getting a gun other than a target shooter, is the US Christian Right. They're been escalating both rhetoric and actions against librarians. Plus, if you teach Evolution in public school or even college, you're a target in some places. This makes both my wife and I feel like we have targets on our backs.

[momentrabbit.livejournal.com]

That's just an underhanded way of restoring school uniforms, then, isn't it...

[pyat.livejournal.com]

"We have a Dress Code for a reason, Beuhler... *BLAM!*"

[mairesue.livejournal.com]

Yes, that must be it because who would let college students carry concealed weapons?

[momentrabbit.livejournal.com]

It's the Society for Campus Aesthetics! First they ask you to hide your weapons, then they tell you to wear uniforms for your own good, and next they're repainting the pavement to match the daisies! Those well-coordinated bastards...

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

"These school uniforms look a lot like army fatigues."
"Shut up, student. You should be studying for the quiz on the Handy Iraqi Phrasebook.

[undeadmuse.livejournal.com]

This is why I'm moving to Canada.

[paka.livejournal.com]

Gun control is one of those irrational American issues. We scream very loudly about anything that looks remotely like gun control - for instance, the idea that concealing your firearm makes you look like a criminal. It's very easy to go from there right into ranting about police states, the Odessa octopus, and concentration camps.

It must seem so alien as to be ludicrous to Canucks (not to mention Brits, Kiwis, Danes, Germans, and other people living in First World countries).

[pyat.livejournal.com]

It must seem so alien as to be ludicrous to Canucks (not to mention Brits, Kiwis, Danes, Germans, and other people living in First World countries).

It sort of does. The Right to Bear Arms is more or less equivalent, in my mind, with the Right to Own a Submarine. :)

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

There's a difference?

[dagoski.livejournal.com]

The MI State police really hated me for a bit. Michigan passed a very liberal conceal/carry law some years ago that didn't specify "guns". It said "weapons". So I called up the hotline they set up with questions about what constituted a weapon. Martial weapons? No prob. That was a relief because I was starting to learn the sai and those were really illegal prior to the new law. Then I wondered...
"What about a.50 cal machine gun sawed off and mounted in a baritone sax case? Can I do that?"
"No."
"How about a .30 cal browning machine gun in a tenor sax case?"
"No. No machine guns in any instrument case. Those are category 3 weapons."
"What about a tesla coil with a wave guide?"
"What?"
"Or, what about a microwave cannon? These guys at Worcester University built one and the set stuff in their lab on fire from across the room!"
"Can you put it in a holster?"
"Won't know til I try."
"Okay, but you'll need to get a letter from BATF."

[koogrr.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I take my right to own a submarine pretty seriously. Just saving up...

[heron61.livejournal.com]

The Right to Bear Arms is more or less equivalent, in my mind, with the Right to Own a Submarine.

Dear gods it's refreshing to hear people say things like that. Of course, I'd be happier if more of those people didn't live in other nations.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

The widespread reaction to gun control is one of many ways that the US is indeed a nation of the mad.

[momentrabbit.livejournal.com]

More locally, the CBC is agog - agog, I say - that there are no restrictions on purchasing 'bullet ingredients'. Black powder! Primers! Casings! Metal shot! Why, any 4-year-old could be Rambo in a matter of minutes!!

I can't wait for them to discover the 'zip gun'. And we all know where that leads...

They'll get my lathe when they pry it from my cold, dead hands. When machining is outlawed, only outlaws will be machinists! Better judged by 12 than carried by 6!

((.. come to think of it, at leaat one of my 'home machinist' texts has plans for a very, very small but workable cannon... hmm.))

[momentrabbit.livejournal.com]

(((Note to self: check and see if there /are/ laws regarding the transport of cannons. What about a 'sawed-off cannon'?))

[pyat.livejournal.com]

I recall a webpage that had details on how to build an SMG with a couple of pipes, some springs, and a compressed air cannister. You could be equipping armies, man!

[halfelf.livejournal.com]

You know what the scariest part of this is? *I* go to THAT UNIVERSITY. That's right, I go to the University of Cincinnati. There's been all these posters all over campus lately, talking about how you should "reconsider your dogma"... Umm... it's not dogma to know that guns hurt people. Maybe I'll make a post about this, with pictures of the posters in a few days. I know it scares the bejeezus out of me. o.o