Pyat and the Hard-Soft-Water-Sale

[pyat]

The interaction was as follows:

The sales rep ("Kathi") tried to get velvetpage to sign a purchase agreement tonight, saying that we will forfeit $4000 in special soap that she can give us, but ONLY IF WE BUY NOW. velvetpage asks to think about it till Friday. Fine, says Kathi, but you won't get the $4000 of soap.

I was putting the girls to bed when this was being said, but came down when I heard Kathi talking about signing. I'd also been in the living room for most of the pitch. I ducked out as soon as I'd seen the product samples, about 2 minutes in. Anyway, I stomped into the conversation like a surly dinosaur and told Kathi we would not be buying tonight.

I should note that my hair was disarranged and standing up, and I was generally wrinkled and untucked from wrangling the girls. Kathi didn't seem impressed by me. I should have been wearing an undershirt, carrying a beer bottle and smoking a stub of a cigar, to complete the picture of clumping male Archie Bunker stereotype.

(I should have growled, "I hear soft water is for homos and commies!")

Kathi objected that I'd not heard her sales pitch, or seen the demonstration. What she didn't know is that I'd been busily googling and doing price research in the living room while listening to her spiel in the kitchen. The bulk of reviews that struck me as detailed and informed were along the lines of "It works fine, but it very overpriced." And, I'd been turned off by her patronizing sales pitch, which was also rather misleading, as we shall see.

I told Kathi that we'd been told she was coming to test our water on behalf of a "community service organization." I told her that velvetpage had asked the appointment setter, point blank, if they were selling anything, and was told they were not.

Said Kathi, "Oh, I'm not selling anything. I'm here to demonstrate the problem with your water, and show you a solution that we have."

That comment made me very mad, and the following interaction was rather terse.

Sez I: "How much is it?"

Kathi: "$37 a month." (This is an outright lie - it is actually $97 a month. She knocked off $60 a month to represent the "savings" we'd realize from not using as much soap or skin lotion.)

Me: "For how long?"

Kathi: "120 months."

Me: "And we don't get the soap if we don't sign tonight?"

Kathi: *pause* "No."

Me: "Then we aren't getting the soap."

Kathi: "Do you know our warranty?"

Me: "Is it on the Internet?"

Kathi: "It's a lifetime warranty."

Me: (I mumbled something generally non-committal.)

Kathi: "You didn't see the demonstration and..."

Me: "I know we need a water softener, but I don't think we need a Rainsoft one."

Then I stumped along back upstairs, wishing I'd told her to leave as soon as the pitch started.

As she was leaving, Kathi privately told velvetpage that we could "probably" get the free soap if we referred someone.

Comments

[sassy-fae.livejournal.com]

That is so amazingly ridiculous.

And there is NO WAY that there's that much savings in soap. My Mom has very hard water here, and spends very little on soap.

[amberite.livejournal.com]

Hard water can actually get you cleaner under some circumstances - it doesn't dissolve as much dirt but the minerals actually scrub stuff off your skin. (The Wikipedia article says that it's harder to get soap off your skin with soft water, leading more water to be used.)

And we use about $4 in soap and shampoo a month. Yarly!

[viktor-haag.livejournal.com]

The type of soap probably is also a factor here. Soaps with moisturizers or perfumes and the like in them probably have material that doesn't rinse off as easily and the particulates in hard water might make it easier to sluice this material off your skin.

I use an organic liquid soap made from peppermint oil (http://www.drbronner.com/DBMS/PEP.htm), and it rinses off very nicely thank-you under our soft water.

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

No soap is worth that.

My mom made lye soap. Once :)

[foomf.livejournal.com]

When I was a teenager my mom used to threaten me that she would wash out my mouth with lye soap if I was lying to her.

I would always get the giggles from that, because what better to wash out lies than lie-soap? ... which did NOT help.

A few years ago I reminded her, and she almost got mad at me again, then I explained why I was laughing, and she cracked up.

Did someone say lye? :-)

[melstra.livejournal.com]

I've made lye soap many times. Used to have a small business selling it, in fact. The truth is, so-called "lye" soap you might buy in a store is generally harsher on your skin because the natural glycerins produced in the process of making soap is taken out and used for other things. Homemade lye soap, when done correctly and allowed to age properly, is actually quite gentle. It's also very cheap to do (not to mention fun)...though the fancy schmancy homemade soap stores won't let you think that. ;-) My biggest problem these days is simply finding the lye-- at least in the US you can't buy it in stores anymore and have to mail order it. A big pain.

[viktor-haag.livejournal.com]

Pyat; we had a sales pitcher come into our home who was similar, trying to sell us a Kinetico softener. We were sufficiently oogied by her presentation to be very leery of the product, although, who knows, it might be very good. Instead, we had a non-name, industrial type softener installed by the plumber we hired to hook up our slightly reno'd kitchen plumbing. He sold it to us for a modest sum. It does use softener salt, which is a steady outlay, but according to the plumber guy, "you don't need fancy gadgets, and yes you pay out in salt, but in the long run, this softener will cost you less because you won't replace it or repair it more than maybe once for the rest of the time you own your home", or similar advice. In short, the plumber's advice might have been every bit as much a sales pitch, but in the end, we trusted him because of his approach and the recommendation for his services we got from someone else. The softener sales lady lost her sale because of her pitch, pretty much regardless of the product she was pitching (actually, the hideous price of her product was also a factor).

[pyat.livejournal.com]

The softener sales lady lost her sale because of her pitch,

Yes! Exactly my thoughts. I don't care what you're selling, don't mislead me or minimize the cost.

[archai.livejournal.com]

I may, possibly, have spent sixty dollars on soap in the last two years, and I am a fairly clean person (who also maintains two separate travel sets of soap). Moreover, these last three years I've had ridiculously hard water, while my entire middle and high school careers, I lived in a house with softened water. I assure you there is no measurable savings in soap. The effect of individual lathering preference is FAR more pronounced.

That woman needed a harder and higher stone wall. Also, $11,640 water softener WTF. That's not a water softener, it's a stupidity tax.

[catarzyna.livejournal.com]

Ugh, I really hate that sort of condescending sales pitch. It ranks right up there with people telling me if I don't repent I'll go straight to hell.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

In Hell, they have NOTHING but hard water.

And it's on fire.

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

It its defense, it does get you very clean.

[bandersnitch.livejournal.com]

This is a fine example of door to door sales rule #1.

Always have the decision makers present. The fact that she was presenting to your wife and not both of you.. I would have predicted the outcome instantly even if she was selling tickets to the second coming.

Your wife was never going to buy with you not present. Kathi would have been wise to have saved her time and insisted you take part in the presentation. Then at very least she would have stood a chance to convince you of her routine.

Granted you can count, so convincing you of what she was presenting seemed relatively unlikely anyways.

[anidada.livejournal.com]

I'm intrigued that your experience suggests couples don't act independently of each other; my experience suggests the opposite is more common. Partners may trust each other to independently make certain decisions with mutual/household consequences or, someone may not even consider that they owe it to their household to inform and allow input on such decisions. The outcome could be good or bad depending on the skill set of the person as applied to the situation, their susceptibility to sales pitches, etc. -- and there could be financial, legal, or relationship consequences.

[bandersnitch.livejournal.com]

With years of sales experience, the "I have to talk to my wife" is the easiest out in the presentation. Valid or otherwise.

This goes two ways.

When all the decision makers are present, they can ask questions the other didn't think of. Being the decision maker you may not have considered something the other would have. Its not a matter of disrespecting or not trusting, just that your other half may have a different concern you won't address. If you are sold and the other isn't then you have an ally in the opposing camp. They start doing your job for you. Negotiations go smoother. This is the primary reason salespeople like to have both present.

The other side is that the solo decision maker may have no objection but is just not convinced but they don't know what else to say in the awkward pressure of this sales pitch vaguely disguised as a presentation. One primary strategy in sales is to overcome all objections. Excuses count as objections. If you are prepared and staged properly, the sale goes smooth.

The one objection that Kathi overcame before she even started was convincing them that she was performing a service (testing their water) and would offer a solution in a presentation. But in reality it was a sales call. You would be less likely to invite her into your home if you thought it was a sales call. She then distracts you with the promise of an offer of free product that you forfeit if you do not deal today (and floundered on later hoping to retain their business)

There is an art to sales. Sales in its purest form is the Transfer of Belief. Which is why salespeople who do not believe in their product, or attempting a scam often fail.

Kathi was not honest up front and in reality I am sure she struggles to close deals, but had she insisted on involving Piet upfront she might have stood a better chance, however her entire approach was flawed so this was only one aspect of why it all came apart.

[anidada.livejournal.com]

Sure, but your perspective is that of an honest salesperson. People who are attempting a scam should fail, but often they succeed, and it's likely easier having only one person to convince. Dishonesty is probably the only way Kathi could get anyone to sign on, because the product's cost is unreasonable and its actual function is, at best, unnecessary.

[bandersnitch.livejournal.com]

Oh sure, no debating that.

There are sales people that succeed because they are simply good liars or spin doctors.

I personally succeed at sales because I believe in the products and services I sell (computers). But in years of doing sales I have learned there are techniques and psychologies that are of great assistance that don't have to be deceptive.

I often tell people I am not really in sales, I am in education. You come into my store to buy something, I dont have to convince you of that part. What I do have to help you with is finding the RIGHT one. My intent, honesty and ability to educate is what makes my sales work right.

[foomf.livejournal.com]

I seem to recall something about misleading sales tricks here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_confidence_tricks

but when I looked I couldn't find anything.
But then this was much more productive:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=isi&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=scam+products+water+filter&spell=1

It seems that a lot of "water filter" product sales involves a scam or a fraud.

I am SO glad you wasted her time for her.

[scodiddly.livejournal.com]

My policy is a 24 hour waiting period on any major purchase. Way more often than not that's the time I need to figure out how it's a scam or at the least a bad deal. Maybe I've missed out on a one-time deal. Maybe... but that would be far outweighed by the ones that would have been a waste if I'd signed right away.

[catsarah.livejournal.com]

Unless she had a complete inorganic water lab with her, there is no way she could tell you what was wrong with your water. Period.

I remember talking to one of these idiots that left a pill bottle sized sample bottle to "test" your water for various things. I looked it, I looked at them and told them point blank who I worked for and in what department I worked (I signed drinking water reports for water testing facilities). They scuttled off with their tail between their legs.

This is the procedure you must follow in order to take a drinking water sample for testing in Ontario. http://www.ontario.ca/drinkingwater/132586.pdf

It normally involves precleaned 1-2 litre bottles from a certified lab. Anything else is bullshit. You should call her up and charge her for the 2 hours of time you can never get back.

*is in pain and cranky*

[catsarah.livejournal.com]

Also, Hamilton drinking water is perfectly safe. It has to be. In fact I trust what comes out of the tap better than I do the water you would get in say 500ml bottles. Municipal drinking water is FAR MORE regulated than the water that bottled water companies put out. I can show you the project I did for one of my Env Eng cert courses. I get a kick out of disillusioning people of their precious bottled water.

And yes, I do drink bottled water. We all have to die some day. It's just not likely to come from the water I drink.

[lee-in-limbo.livejournal.com]

Adoring you today.

Lee.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

To her credit, she never once said the water was dangerous, per se - she focused more on things like the damage it did to the applicances and clothes, and how it wasn't good for dry skin.

I am concerned about the lead pipe that leads to our house, but a Brita filter can handle that. :)

[catsarah.livejournal.com]

And I'm betting she never mentioned that you ought not to drink softened water. Softened water should only ever be used in appliances, which does you no good in the kitchen as your dishwasher is generally hooked up to your drinking supply.

[relee.livejournal.com]

Oh poor Pyat and Velvety-page. *sends hugs*

Fraud

[ankhorite.livejournal.com]

In the U.S., I'd beg you to contact your state's Attorney General.

In Canada, I don't know where you report frauds like this, but I bet I can find someone who does, if you don't.

AIIIIIEEEE!!!!

Re: Fraud

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Nah, it's not legally fraud or a scam. It's evasive and a rip-off, and rip-offs aren't illegal.

[momentrabbit.livejournal.com]

You should consider memorizing the "Mandrake, have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water?" routine for future encounters.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

But that would play into her hands, because the filter removes fluoride!

[momentrabbit.livejournal.com]

(snert) It undoes one of the greatest advances in dental technology, and that's a selling point. Sigh...

[feywild.livejournal.com]

Are in-house sales pitches common in Canada? They seem to have gone out of fashion here.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

No, not really. Mainly for big ticket stuff, like replacing windows and so on.

[lee-in-limbo.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't be tempted to buy. Shifty sales pitches give me a rash. Your water probably isn't anything like detrimental, and this idea that you're saving money by spending tens of thousands of dollars is a con, pure and simple. Your Google-fu is strong. I'm sure you could find a much less shady product to use if you absolutely must have a water softener.

Lee.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Definitely. I can buy a similar softener for under $1000, I think.