Views of God

[pyat]

From CNN.com:

"FINDLAY, Ohio (CNN) –- In an interview posted online Wednesday, Sarah Palin told Dr. James Dobson of “Focus on the Family” that she is confident God will do “the right thing for America” on Nov. 4.

Dobson asked the vice presidential hopeful if she is concerned about John McCain’s sagging poll numbers, but Palin stressed that she was “not discouraged at all.”

“To me, it motivates us, makes us work that much harder,” she told the influential Christian leader, whose radio show reaches tens of millions of listeners daily. “And it also strengthens my faith because I know at the end of the day putting this in God’s hands, the right thing for America will be done, at the end of the day on Nov. 4.”

She also thanked her supporters — including Dobson, who said he and his wife were asking “for God’s intervention” on election day — for their prayers of support.

“It is that intercession that is so needed,” she said. “And so greatly appreciated. And I can feel it too, Dr. Dobson. I can feel the power of prayer, and that strength that is provided through our prayer warriors across this nation. And I so appreciate it.”

The interview was taped on Monday by phone while Palin was campaigning in Colorado Springs, where “Focus on the Family” is headquartered."

I'm not quoting this to spark debate about the election, or basic politics. I feel their comments raise interesting questions about how they view God, and prayer.

If Palin loses, will she say it was because:
A) God did not consider her or McCain to be the best candidates?
B) God had no control over the outcome of the election?
C) God did not chose to "intervene" because people didn't pray hard enough?

I'm sure there are other options.

Does Dobson's comment about praying for God to intervene mean that he believes God is usually "hands off," unless specifically petitioned?

It seems to me that they regard God as a magic fairy who gives you things, but only if you want them hard enough.

In any case, they might win, so... we'll see.

Comments

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

"Yes, God answers all prayers. But sometimes the answer is 'No.'". ;-)

I've heard this a lot, and honestly, it started to really bug me a few years ago, because of what it says about the value of prayer. If this is true, then the value of prayer is mostly for the person doing it rather than for the prayer itself. (EDIT: What bugged me about it was that this was the rhetoric, but the way it was used was rather more the way Palin and Dobson are using it, and the cognitive dissonance was rather loud.) If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then there is no need for him to listen to our prayers or take them into much account; he already knows what we need far better than we could. If he's also benevolent, then he's going to want what is best for us. Prayer should be unnecessary except as personal meditation on what God wants for us, what is best for ourselves, and what is best for humanity through us.

Thing is, the fundamentalists don't see it that way. They see prayer as doing concrete good, changing God's mind. That's why they spend all the time and effort on prayer chains, prayer groups, intercessory prayer, etc, etc. There's no reason for it unless you believe that it's going to affect how God gets things done, INDEPENDENT of your own actions. If prayer is something you do to find out the will of God, then it doesn't look like what they do. It's not intercessory and it's not really a petition - it's, "Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace."

I suppose this is why I distrust any church where prayer is listed under the action plan. It should be part of the process to figure out what the action plan is, but it's not an action in and of itself. Its role is similar to that of a personal growth journal rather than a petition full of signatures.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

I love you, dear. :)

[foomf.livejournal.com]

That IS the point, though. Prayer is primarily for US to get back to God, and to put us in a mindset where we are more likely to listen to what God says to us.

Intercession is sharing concerns, and is in accordance with what Jesus said to do when praying.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I know. And that's what I don't get. I don't think there should be any need for intercessory prayer if the goal of prayer is for us to get back to God. Any attempt to influence the will of God doesn't seem to fit with this view of prayer. Yet the view of prayer that sees intercession as a huge part of the point - like Palin does - is pure magical thinking, and therefore anathema to me.

Either God is omnicient and omnipotent and benevolent enough to do it without us asking, or he's not. If he is but still wants us to ask, then I have no interest in feeding anyone's vanity by doing it, not even God's. If he isn't, then intercessory prayer makes more sense - except that the rest of the faith falls down around it.

Note: Please don't try to explain this to me - I already know the good Christian viewpoint, and don't agree with it.

[melstra.livejournal.com]

Not going to try and explain, except to opine that there is no such thing as a "good Christian viewpoint"-- perhaps simply a prevailing one, or the one you grew up with. But there are zillions of books on prayer and zillions of opinions about its purpose. And a good many of them are Christian viewpoints. ;-)

Just sayin'.

[foomf.livejournal.com]

I bite my tongue hard on clarification questions because I foresee them leading to an in-depth discussion wherein I would inevitably phrase some questions in a way that could generate more heat than light. But I don't think 'vanity' is involved.

[the-vulture.livejournal.com]

Directing their will to influence an invisible force to create a desired outcome? Yep, that's magical thinking, pure and simple.

Who's up for accusing the fundies of witchcraft? (said with a ginormous tongue in cheek)

[athelind.livejournal.com]

Without any sense of irony at all, I certainly am.

These people do, in fact, believe that they can tell God what to do.

And then they dare to call SCIENTISTS arrogant.

[the-vulture.livejournal.com]

It's not arrogance, it's RIGHTEOUSNESS! There's a difference, ya know. :p