Views of God

[pyat]

From CNN.com:

"FINDLAY, Ohio (CNN) –- In an interview posted online Wednesday, Sarah Palin told Dr. James Dobson of “Focus on the Family” that she is confident God will do “the right thing for America” on Nov. 4.

Dobson asked the vice presidential hopeful if she is concerned about John McCain’s sagging poll numbers, but Palin stressed that she was “not discouraged at all.”

“To me, it motivates us, makes us work that much harder,” she told the influential Christian leader, whose radio show reaches tens of millions of listeners daily. “And it also strengthens my faith because I know at the end of the day putting this in God’s hands, the right thing for America will be done, at the end of the day on Nov. 4.”

She also thanked her supporters — including Dobson, who said he and his wife were asking “for God’s intervention” on election day — for their prayers of support.

“It is that intercession that is so needed,” she said. “And so greatly appreciated. And I can feel it too, Dr. Dobson. I can feel the power of prayer, and that strength that is provided through our prayer warriors across this nation. And I so appreciate it.”

The interview was taped on Monday by phone while Palin was campaigning in Colorado Springs, where “Focus on the Family” is headquartered."

I'm not quoting this to spark debate about the election, or basic politics. I feel their comments raise interesting questions about how they view God, and prayer.

If Palin loses, will she say it was because:
A) God did not consider her or McCain to be the best candidates?
B) God had no control over the outcome of the election?
C) God did not chose to "intervene" because people didn't pray hard enough?

I'm sure there are other options.

Does Dobson's comment about praying for God to intervene mean that he believes God is usually "hands off," unless specifically petitioned?

It seems to me that they regard God as a magic fairy who gives you things, but only if you want them hard enough.

In any case, they might win, so... we'll see.

Comments

[neebs.livejournal.com]

A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A! A!

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Eh? :)

[brand-of-amber.livejournal.com]

Actually, a lot of Christians I've known, especially those with some degree of fundy background, do in fact treat God rather like a magic fairy. He's there to grant wishes, but getting them doesn't prove that you wanted them hard enough, so much as you are morally superior to everyone else because God (the magic fairy) is on your side.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

I think Frazer talks about this in The Golden Bough.

[pwned-kisa.livejournal.com]

D) God did not chose to "intervene" because there's a thing called free will, and that means that people are free to choose a leader that's not them.

**sighs**

[pyat.livejournal.com]

*nods* Would Palin think of that one, though?

[melstra.livejournal.com]

My mom has frighteningly gotten more conservative in her Christianity as she grows older, but the church I was raised in was actually pretty liberal for a tiny village church-- or at least we were lucky enough to have a wonderfully open minded pastor for most of my childhood. One of my favorite lines (not from him, but from growing up and attending various bible studies) was "Yes, God answers all prayers. But sometimes the answer is 'No.'". ;-)

As far as I'm concerned, praying that God helps our country and that the best candidate wins is one thing. Praying for a specific candidate is something completely different.

Thanks for sharing the quotes. As a Christian, I find both Palin and Dobson disturbing.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Praying for a specific candidate is something completely different.

Yes! Very implicit in their statements in the idea that they need to tell God who the right candidate is.

Otherwise, he might not know!

[ladyceleste.livejournal.com]

"Yes, God answers all prayers. But sometimes the answer is 'No.'"

I love this.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

"Yes, God answers all prayers. But sometimes the answer is 'No.'". ;-)

I've heard this a lot, and honestly, it started to really bug me a few years ago, because of what it says about the value of prayer. If this is true, then the value of prayer is mostly for the person doing it rather than for the prayer itself. (EDIT: What bugged me about it was that this was the rhetoric, but the way it was used was rather more the way Palin and Dobson are using it, and the cognitive dissonance was rather loud.) If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then there is no need for him to listen to our prayers or take them into much account; he already knows what we need far better than we could. If he's also benevolent, then he's going to want what is best for us. Prayer should be unnecessary except as personal meditation on what God wants for us, what is best for ourselves, and what is best for humanity through us.

Thing is, the fundamentalists don't see it that way. They see prayer as doing concrete good, changing God's mind. That's why they spend all the time and effort on prayer chains, prayer groups, intercessory prayer, etc, etc. There's no reason for it unless you believe that it's going to affect how God gets things done, INDEPENDENT of your own actions. If prayer is something you do to find out the will of God, then it doesn't look like what they do. It's not intercessory and it's not really a petition - it's, "Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace."

I suppose this is why I distrust any church where prayer is listed under the action plan. It should be part of the process to figure out what the action plan is, but it's not an action in and of itself. Its role is similar to that of a personal growth journal rather than a petition full of signatures.

The Onion on that subject:

[pxtl.livejournal.com]

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28812

God Answers Prayers Of Paralyzed Little Boy
'No,' Says God

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

I thought America was supposed to be a *cough* democracy.

[pwned-kisa.livejournal.com]

I realize that this isn't to me, nor is it anything but snark, mostly, but... have you seen the past eight years? Bush (as far as I'm concerned) has made us pretty much a theocracy.

[sixteenbynine.livejournal.com]

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

....

HA! HA! HA!

Kidding aside, yes. It's just REALLY HARD TO BELIEVE THAT SOMETIMES.

[bandersnitch.livejournal.com]

Separation of Church and state just means that churches are not government.

No one said they couldn't dictate.

[dagoski.livejournal.com]

Well, Protestant Christianity in the US has become largely pagan in the sense that they see god as a spirit which grants wishes. I'm using pagan with a small p to denote that these believers have gone back a view of the supernatural that's been regarded as heresy. Seems like an awful lot of the prayers and invocations one runs across these days in the US could stand in for occult rituals. All you'd have to do is change a few proper nouns. I don't move in those circles, so I'm mainly going by transcripts I've read though I have been appalled at a couple of invocations I've heard in person.

In any case, this has been brewing up since the 1970s at least. The non-denominational church I was forced to attend as a kid preached this kind of theology. Scripture in this environment becomes largely irrelevant and the sermons I remember rarely had anything from the New Testament in them. However, you HAD TO BELIEVE!!!! Believe in what, though? They never made that clear other than whatever it was had name and that name was God. There was never any talk about the principles of the faith that you find in the New Testament.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

In any case, this has been brewing up since the 1970s at least.

I think it goes back to the beginning. Certainly, there's a few paragraphs in The Golden Bough about how most adherents of a given religion are actually superstitious, rather than religious. They're seeking a boon from the Sky-People, or bowing to them out of fear of punishment.

[paka.livejournal.com]

Come on, this stuff is old hat. Thinking of God as some weird variety of Santa Claus is something anyone, from any religion, can do some of the time but with these guys Sacred Santa is endemic. You know the sort of thing. They've been doing praying stuff throughout this campaign - I think you might read Athelind, recently he posted the slur campaign where some of the Republican faithful were dead certain that Obama's evil voudounista family (in Kenya) were sacrificing chickens for his victory, and that Moslems loved him universally, and therefore they were praying to achieve complete spiritual victory and so on.

These people are complete fanatics and a true danger to my country, my family, my friends, and my willingness to accept that "Christian" can be synonymous with "decent human being." You should see the rhetoric behind the anti-Gay marriage thing here in California. These guys who have everything feel that eeeeevil Gay people have co-opted the system to form a serious threat to their kids and their god. There's always a threat out there.

We are expected to believe that the most powerful and sympathetically benevolent entity in the universe is seriously threatened by a few nerds playing AD&D, cares deeply about NASCAR races, and always comes down on the side of right-wing Republican Americans.

Though, I gotta say, if a McCain victory is God's will, then I hadn't realized that He hacks electronic voting.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Though, I gotta say, if a McCain victory is God's will, then I hadn't realized that He hacks electronic voting.

The question is, could God make an electronic voting machine he couldn't hack?

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that they regard God as a magic fairy who gives you things, but only if you want them hard enough.

Those fools! Have they never read The Monkey's Paw?

[pyat.livejournal.com]

"Sarah Palin prayed for God to end the drought in California, and it fell into the ocean!"

[bandersnitch.livejournal.com]

Too many of those godless gun control heathens voted for Obama?

God can't control the godless?

[pyat.livejournal.com]

I had not considered that angle. I wonder if anyone explicitly thinks that God cannot control people who don't worship Him?

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

To answer the question - I think they're not going to consider any answer that requires them to be wrong in what God wanted, or that requires God to be less than all-powerful, so I suspect it will be C, with a side note of, "God may want a Democratic victory so that His party has time to regroup and come back stronger than ever! His answer wasn't "no," it was, "not right now.""

[pyat.livejournal.com]

I actually recall hearing someone at Mountain say that God caused the big tsunami to give us a chance to help the needy.

So... he thought God made people needy so we could feel better about ourselves by donating $50 to Red Cross?

[foomf.livejournal.com]

"Prayer Warriors" is a keyword here. It's a dog-whistle to the dominionists.

I may have already said this before: when I prayed so very fervently about the election in 1999 and the horrific thought that George W. Bush might become President, I got a very strong direct answer.

"America will have the President she deserves." Attached to the "words" was a judgment condemning apathy by those who profess to do good, and of the consequences of listening to false prophets.

So, yeah. The Dominionists DO see God as something less than God. They believe that the Enemy is so entrenched and active, that it's almost as though the defeat and overthrow at the Crucifixion never happened.
They believe that through prayer they can fight the Enemy and all the "countless demons at his disposal" ... and they name them, which is profoundly foolish because in a magical mindset, it creates them, and they are thus empowered. They believe that they alone are the "real" Christians, that they have the Holy Spirit (as demonstrated by their praying in tongues and other manifestations) and thus that they are superior (ignoring the warnings from Paul against spiritual arrogance over gifts) and they have a whole series of new "prophecies" that they are trying to bring about.

One of the key elements in their getting this done is to get their people into positions of political power. And, Sarah Palin is 'anointed' by them.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

"...it creates them, and they are thus empowered."

Dude, that should be a motto or a t-shirt, or something.

And, Sarah Palin is 'anointed' by them.

Quite literally so. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEBnZJQZHJg

[jirris-midvale.livejournal.com]

Free Will is a bitch.

[kesmun.livejournal.com]

My favorite quote about prayer comes from a fourth-century saint, and one of the Cappadocian Fathers - Gregory of Nazianzus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Nazianzus). (See also here (http://www.satucket.com/lectionary/Gregory_Nazianzus.htm))

"God accepts our desires as though they were a great value. He longs ardently for us to desire and love him. He accepts our petitions for benefits as though we were ding him a favor. His joy in giving is greater than ours in receiving. So let us not be apathetic in our asking, nor set too narrow bounds to our requests, nor ask for frivolous things unworthy of God's greatness." (emphasis mine)