Re: Socialism

[pyat]

From Time Magazine:
"There is no way that the French government can pay for this lifestyle forever, except that it somehow does. "

Yes. The argument that socialized health care and welfare will somehow bankrupt a country is an odd one, since it often comes from strong proponents of free markets, who firmly believe in society's ability to generate wealth. I also hear it from people who claim the military is underfunded.

Of course, that last point may be legitimate in Canada, where the military budget is just 1% (give or take a few tenths) of the GDP. However, I more commonly hear it from Americans, where military spending represents about 45% of total world military spending, and is at the point where the U.S. could annually fund the construction two dozen space elevators instead, something which, P.S., would generate more wealth rather than simply evaporating into accounting limbo.

In any case, the belief that socialized health care and welfare will eventually bankrupt a nation is similar to the belief that continuing to buy groceries will eventually put you in the poorhouse.

Comments

[mmsword.livejournal.com]

The US military is underfunded in the same fashion education here is: There's money there, but it never reaches the people who could best utilize it.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

That sounds right. Any idea what percentage of the DoD budget goes to, say, pay cheques and equipment for guys in the field?

[iridium-wolf.livejournal.com]

Not Enough(tm).

[paka.livejournal.com]

I kinda think we've trapped ourselves in the role of having this runaway defense budget, and that really is key to what our government can do, and plays into the rhetoric that keeps us using impractical private sector solutions. I wish there were a good way to break out of the pattern we're stuck in.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Incremental change, I guess. It's how you got there.

[zenten.livejournal.com]

You know, now that I think about it your guys military spending is a lot like your guys health care spending. You dump huge amounts of money into both, but much of it into private contractors, and end up getting a lot less bang for your buck because of it.

[cargoweasel.livejournal.com]

It has nothing to do with the expense. But many Americans just absolutely cannot stand the idea that someone might get healthcare, or indeed any government benefits that they didn't "earn". It's more of a fear of someone else "sponging off the government". Now, if it's THEM getting a multibillion dollar bailout from the government, THATs just good business.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I often find the fiscal argument is a veil for the moral one, with people complaining about potential abuse of the system. You can have nice things, because people suck.

I once had a person tell me that universal healthcare would not work in the U.S. because Americans are "different" and would work to break the system.

[cargoweasel.livejournal.com]

People love to project their own motivations onto others.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I find it often comes down to a philosophical dislike of the idea of a nanny state - that is, they believe in independence to the point where they're not helping each other out of legitimate holes. There's also the very real (and valid) fear that the government paying for health care = the government controlling their health care, and deciding what their treatments should be (sort of like HMOs do now, only even MORE intrusive - imagine if your HMO had a direct line to the IRS.) The third thing is mismanagement. Many of them don't trust the feds to do anything right, fiscally speaking.

[cargoweasel.livejournal.com]

And yet the same people revere and trust the US military with everything imaginable. Somehow the military is exempt from all that 'government is the problem' stuff. No, it's deeper than distrust of nanny states or the feds screwing it up. It's not that they are afraid the government would get it wrong, but that the government would give health care benefits to someone who doesnt "deserve" them. And more often than not that means poor minorities, or immigrants, scapegoats for all problems.

[dagoski.livejournal.com]

What you're seeing here is the fact that the US is not a nation in the same sense as the majority in the world are. We do not have a dominant ethnicity or cultural identity. This feeds back into our politics by making it impossible for the electorate to subsidize the lives of the people they see as The Other. Look at how the Republicans have emphasized cultural, religious and regional differences to peel votes away from the party that campaigns of consensus. There are a lot of people who would vote Democrat, meaning they'd vote for a pretty progressive platform save for one or two cultural issues.

[eyebeams.livejournal.com]

We do not have a dominant ethnicity or cultural identity.

Except for anglo white dudes.

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

Are you sure it's not the US' military spending is 45% of the world total military spending? Because even the Cold War Soviet Union only got up to around 30% of their budget, and North Korea is the current #1 at about 22%.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

You are, of course, correct. :)

[bodhifox.livejournal.com]

States rights. You people never talk about individual state's rights. Each individual state doesn't want to subsidize the others. We're all competeing with each other for factories and money and status and residents. The Feds take our money and spread it where they will.

Also, socialized medicine doesn't allow anyone to get rich. That's a failing, here, where profits trump all.

[relee.livejournal.com]

As I understand it, that whole "Not getting rich" thing is the reason for our doctor shortage here in Canada. Most of them run to the states to charge big bucks for botox, and such. I think the U.S. instituting a socialized health care system would be a great boon for Canada. ^.^

[pyat.livejournal.com]

The US has 2.4 doctors per 1000 population. Canada has 2.2. So, if there is shortage, we both have a shortage. In 1975, both countries had about 1.5 doctors per 1000.

The UK has 2.5, and Germany has 3.4. Cuba has 5.91.

[relee.livejournal.com]

Well, the shortage has been in the news a lot for the last few years, and lots of people seem to be having trouble finding doctors so I didn't have much reason to question it.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

*nods* We could use some more, for sure, but it's not a result of having a socialized heathcare system.

[relee.livejournal.com]

I wasn't suggesting it was because we have one, but because the Americans don't. I've been told and read that many Canadian med students are leaving the country as soon as they get their doctorates in order to join American clinics. Because they don't pay as much for tuition they have more personal capital to begin their practice and are able to outperform American doctors. Or so they say.

[mrs-dm.livejournal.com]

Actually, the main reasons for the Canadian doctor shortage include the following;

1. In 1992, the federal government enacted recommendations in the Barer-Stoddart report (penned by a couple of accountants) that suggested that Canada had too many doctors and projected a huge surplus in the near future. As a result, medical school and residency enrollment was cut by 10 percent across the country.

2. The foreseen surplus never occurred for the following demographic reasons: a) most doctors are baby-boomers or older and are retiring (or dying off) b) the ones that aren't, tend to work part-time as they are elderly or mothers with children (Yours Truly falls into this category)

Thus, the doctor-per-person statistic is sort of useless because it doesn't take into account the type of doctor (full-time family physicians are in shortest-supply) or how many hours they work.

The frustrating thing is no politician seems to want to talk about these root causes and how they can make sure this bad planning doesn't happen again. They just want to throw money at the problem.

[thebitterguy]

Wait, it's Mulroney's fault? Dammit! I hate that guy!

[zenten.livejournal.com]

Any idea what the nursing figures are like?

[thebitterguy]

Quite hot, now that you mention it. Mrrrrow!

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Have you seen hillarygayle? Now THERE's an American nursing figure!

[hillarygayle.livejournal.com]

*laughs and laughs until falls over dead*

[hillarygayle.livejournal.com]

I can't tell you what the precise figures are like, but I can give you an example for my area of the country: northeastern Arkansas. Last year, the first group of people who did the accelerated BSN program (1 year) that I'm in now, graduated in the summer. Two months before they graduated, 12 out of the 17 already had jobs to go to immediately, and the remaining 5 had them before graduation. Every single one is employed before they've even taken the boards. Here, "unemployed nurse" is a complete oxymoron.

[relee.livejournal.com]

YAAAAAAAAAAAAY SOCIALISM!

Are you a Socialist, Pyat? It seems like most of my friends are capitalists or prefer not to think about economics at all. ^.^;;

[pyat.livejournal.com]

I believe in Democratic Socialism, because I don't trust anybody, not The Man, and not The People. ;)

[relee.livejournal.com]

I also like Democratic Socialism, 'cause I think there are some things that should be handled by the government, and some things that should be handled by the people. Unfortunately for me, not all of those things are on the right side of the equation right now, and I'm not aware of any movement to change them the way I see fit. ^.^;;