On the subject of popularity and passion

[pyat]

So, there’s been some discussion and debate on Erin’s journal about high school. Specifically, the discussion was about Dungeons and Dragons. On one side of the debate was the opinion that it was better to steer kids away from D&D (and presumably all pen and paper gaming of the same or similar kind) because it would make the kids a target of bullying.

On the other side of the debate was the opinion that RPGs are a socially healthy outlet that build lasting friendships. This was usually expressed with an extra dollop of “…and, anyway, it’s the popular kids who end up in dead-end jobs,” or sentiments to that effect.

I won’t comment on the core part of the debate, at least not extensively.

However, it did spark a two other thoughts.

1. For the last few years, I’ve been of the opinion that very few people remember themselves as being popular in high school. This is because (no matter what group you are in) there will be someone who hates or disdains you. To dramatically simplify the social equation: the nerds disdain the jocks, who bully the nerds. Each group harasses the other. And of course, the larger the social group, the more internal divisions, rivalries and disagreements there will be.

The leader of my high-school cheerleader squad once wrote an anonymous article for the school newspaper describing her loss of virginity in a cluttered bedroom. It was just about the most depressing thing I’d ever read, and we didn’t print it because it contained sufficient detail to identify her. I recall that it was the first time that I really understood that people at the top of the “social chain” were not only not necessarily happy, but also had real internal lives that were just as valid as mine.

And this realization fuelled another revelation. The guys on the track team, the girls in gymnastics, etc…. they weren’t "cool." They were just keen on things I didn’t like. It was no use being disdainful of them simply because they liked things I didn’t like. They were in the same boat as me, in most ways. Why should I be sniffy about the ability to do push-ups, or play a guitar, if I didn’t want them to be scornful of my ability to write snotty editorials in the school paper?

The same could even be said of the junior executive types, who viewed life after high-school as an exercise in acquisition of wealth. I could hate their philosophy, but I couldn’t deny that they had some kind of driving interest.

The true enemy, if one actually existed, were the “real” cool people. The students who were the epitome of cool were the ones with no interests or passions whatsoever. They disdained anything that stank of effort or pleasure, and were interested only in ensuring that everyone else regarded life with the same level of studied nonchalance. In their world, the desire to excel at anything was dangerous.

In my opinion, it would almost be better to be a passionate stamp-collector with no friends at all. I say “almost”, because of my second point.


2. When we talk about social groups in high-school teasing or bullying other groups, we often forget that these are, in fact, GROUPS of people. The “gamers” are a group of people with common interests and passions, just as the chess team, the football players, the Drama club, etc., are.

As such, any individual within that group has a support structure, and has friends, or at least acquaintances. The students that we should really worry about are the true outcasts, the ones with no friends or social group at all, the people that are scorned even by the neediest of nerds.

I can think of two examples from my high-school. One, a very clever girl who suffered from cerebral palsy. She was in the gifted student group, but could not fit in. She had a crush on me, and I had one on her in the 9th and 10th grade… until I realized that no one liked her. She was plump, dressed in obvious charity store products (before that was cool), talked about Russia and physics incessantly, and didn’t wash her air often enough. She walked oddly, talked oddly, and had acne. People noticed that we sat together a lot… noticed also the surreptitious half-hugs and what-not, and the fact that we joked together.

The teasing I was subjected to because of my friendship with and evident attraction to this girl drove me to rather cruelly avoid her from that year onward. I don’t know how she took it, but she essentially disappeared from even the “nerd trips” the group took, and generally was by herself anytime I saw her after that. I fervently hope that she found a social group and romance in university, or in her career.

The second was a fellow who LOOKED like a nerd, and even had nerdly interests. He loved SF and comic books. However, he was not clever. In fact, I think he was possibly developmentally delayed and was in mostly remedial classes. He had no social skills. To be seen in his company was the mark of social doom. So, he was avoided by everyone, and the butt of jokes even at the hands of people who should have had at least a trace of empathy. He was desperate for friendship. He tried to become the class clown, and failed.

I still see him from time to time, and his lot has not changed. He lurks at a local comic book store for one afternoon a month, and never speaks to anyone. Just stands, smiling, by the register, for an hour… then takes his comics and walks out.

Comments

[dagoski.livejournal.com]

In my experience, bullies, whether they are part of the cool crowd or not, seek out victims who are not confident. Sometimes confidence can be a provocation, but that's a more compled dynamic and, where I went to school, stemmed more from being out of one's turf than anything else. I went to a large, inner city and very multi ethnic high school in Southern Los Angeles. There wasn't too much bullying because the place was so huge that everyone was kinda unsure of themselves, even and especially the jocks. Bullying happened in lower grades where the schools were centered more on neighborhoods. So, I'd encourage your daughters interests when and where they take her because a kid who does things, develops passions and so on will generally be more confident and will have supportive friends rather than predatory ones like many of the so-called popular ones have. So I see no problem with her getting hooked on roleplaying games. The only issue I see is that she might spend more time hanging out with adults and older kids rather than kids her own age, but that doesn't have to be a problem. Besides, based on the family groups and the wide array of kids programs I saw the year before last at Origins, I think RPGs are getting closer to the mainstream and do not have the stigma attached that they used to.

[thebitterguy]

Christ, I need a drink now.

[paka.livejournal.com]

I dunno. I think success and failure are too darn complicated to be tagged to any one group of people.

I mean... if you've suffered hardship after social alienation after bullying, you might have learned the skills to truly adapt and survive and be tolerant in turn any time in life, but you might also have learned fear and self-loathing that forever haunts and limits you, and hey, why not both at the same time?

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Well, pretty much any summation anyone can make about any social situation is going to fall short.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry. :)

Hey, I owe you lunch.

And your birthday is sooN!

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Yup, on all points.

I don't care if my kids want to be cheerleaders. So long as they're happy about it!

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I think you're right on about the bullying. Ever notice who is most likely to come in for the sexual-innuendo type of bullying? It's the kids who appear confident about everything else, because there's no such thing as a kid who isn't vulnerable to sexual harassment. When all else fails, that's what bullies fall back on.

[dagoski.livejournal.com]

Just be glad you don't have race to contend with. One way low achievement is enforced among Black Americans--and I am choosing my words very carefulyl here-- is through the taunt "You're turning white on us." This taunt is generally hurled at any black kid who is a scholastic high achiever. I think things have changed in places like California, and in places like Philadelphia it's not an issue. But I remember hearing this bandied about all through Jr. High and High School. I never saw a black kid who could stand up to that one. In Philadelphis, reverse segregation has probably made this a non-issue, but I bet this taunt is still heard today in alot of places.

[dagoski.livejournal.com]

But not my spelling :/

[thebitterguy]

It's just a punch to the spirit to think that as bad as it was, as lousy as my friends were (and what a sad wretched bunch they were) they were my friends.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

I've heard of that, and I find it so sad and so incomprehensible at the same time.

[dagoski.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, I understand this all to well, It's a class thing as well as a race thing. The education divide is one of the things that divided me from my Dad's side of the family. When you're down, anyone who's up just kind of twists the knife that's already in you. When I started studying studying a purely academic discipline, Physics, I started getting very similar comments, the jist of which was that I was becoming alien to them, that I didn't belong. Now my family was so utterly dysfunctional that their attempts to diss me actually encouraged me. Hell yeah, I wanted to be different from them! But when you're entire cultural group says that, it's a whole 'nother story. What I saw in my Hispanic peers was somewhat different. It was okay for girls to do well in school as long as they got married PDQ. But a guy who was not on the voc track, heading towards getting an entry level job early on, simply was not a man. There was a lot or pressure on them to drop out entirely and start working.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

God bless 'em!

[neebs.livejournal.com]

I really like this. (found you through the comment on velvetpage's journal) (also, I am aware you are married to her, FYI =))

Mind if I add you? You have some interesting things to say!

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Only if I can add you back!

[neebs.livejournal.com]

Sure thing! Mine's FL because of a stalker ex-boyfriend, but you are welcome to the boring details of my life. =)

[sixteenbynine.livejournal.com]

There's an incredible amount to be said here on my part, but I'll keep it brief.

I got bullied pretty heavily in high school, but in a way I also set myself up for it -- I was emotionally unstable and prone to flying off the handle at any little thing just because it made me the center of attention. I kind of got made into a victim by most anyone who was bored and wanted something to laugh at. (Kids are terribly amoral and petty creatures when no one else is around to help them be something other than that.)

I really don't know what happened to most, if not all, of the people who bullied me or were popular -- the two were not mutually inclusive or exclusive, I found out. I certainly don't wish them any harm, or have some kind of fawning hope that they all crashed and burned socially once they entered the "real" world. (I mean, come on, there's few enough decent, sensible people as it is; the more the better. It's not as if I want to have a monopoly on being a good guy.)

On the whole, I don't think I've done too badly. Heck, I'm still married after 11 years, and me and the missus have a fine time together. That counts for something, I guess.

[doc-mystery.livejournal.com]

Thanks for bumming me out with your story of social misfits, Piet.

Re: D&D or not for kids; I don't think bullies really need a valid reason to pick on any kid. If not a hobby like D&D, then their appearance, or their name, or their height, or their religion, or their hair/skin colour, or no reason at all that anyone has any control over.

And if any kid wants to participate in an activity with their parents, then that's good enough for me to encourage them to play.

::B::

[neutopian.livejournal.com]

Yes..

[dronon.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen the original discussion thread, but in my mind let the kids play D&D or whatever they want to, what matters is that they're having fun together and doing something they enjoy. Whether they can withstand bullying is a separate issue and should be tackled outside of the D&D thing.

The only danger I can imagine (and not related to D&D) is if someone's peer group of friends develop some weirdly negative kind of groupthink where they accept each other's bad behaviour, but then try to extend it outside their circle of friends and wonder why people are reacting badly to it.

Regarding bullying, I was teased and bullied fairly regularly all the way from kindergarden up through grade 11. It took me many years later to reconcile that on my end, I had been a whiner who was easy to goad and put on quite a show, and that I didn't stick up for myself enough. On the other hand, the constant psychological barrage of negativity left me emotionally scarred; I am now an overweight cynic with low self-esteem in his 30s who's never had a serious date. I hang out o.k. with nerds of similar persuasion but socializing and making new friends remains very difficult for me. I've barely made any new friends in the last four years.

In high school, although I classified people into groups - the jocks, the preps, the goths, the popular crowd, etc. - this was simply a label to say, "they have interests and have fun in ways other than I do". I never classed a group negatively by nature, only individual members. I knew really nice jocks and real asshole jocks. Thankfully my high school was a pretty well-balanced one where no particular clique held power and the different groups pretty much did their own things without antagonizing one another. I too share your guilt in avoiding an awkward girl in pretty much the exact same way you described; reading that made my hair stand on end.

I never really understood why bullies behaved the way they did. I think it's how they go about validating their existance to feel good about themselves. But if you asked them why, you'd get a blank stare, that it started so long ago in their childhoods that the reasons have been long forgotten, and now it's simply a pattern, it's the way they are. Some people are mean. I've generally lost touch with most of the people I knew in grade school. I have no intention of ever attending a reunion.

If anything, I think kids that start bullying should be caught early and be made to think about why they're doing what they're doing. If they don't like someone, to leave them be, and to be civil, but never rude. I think it's important to teach kids to leave the world a little better than you left it before, with each action you take, in each interaction you have with others. To encourage self-confidence, independence, critical thinking, and just plain having fun. The most interesting people I know all seem to have had childhoods where they had wacky imaginations and did things outside the norm. :-)

Summer camps for me were miserable - until I found D&D camp. Let things be fun!

[the-codger.livejournal.com]

That was one of the saddest things I had read in a long time. I got through high school alright. I did the popular thing for a time, I can do a mean apathy. However what is interesting to me is the time when I was most popular was the time when I was most damaged and the time I am most ashamed of in my life.

I still have hold overs for highschool, for example I do hide my geeky side from all but those who I know will accept. And even then I still lessen it. I will always use the term "gaming" and not D&D as gaming is a larger category and often people will add more socially acceptable items to it.

As I first read this, my initial reaction was, trying to make you child fit in seems to be counter productive for society. However there were some startling truths there in the end which give a compelling argument. We all know those with a lack of social skills, hell I barely think I have a handle on them...

I think in the end growing up is painful for all, but also fun. It is a chaos of emotions. I do not belive there is one path any better then anouther emotionally... if they get some more cereibrial activity then perhaps they will survive in the world after.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

I depressed everyone with this entry, looks like. Yay, Internets!

And, I agree. It doesn't matter WHAT interest a kid has - someone is going to hate them for it.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

*nods* It was a while before I realized that many of the worst bullies in high school were terribly unpopular. And that it sometimes (often, even) went both ways.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

The only danger I can imagine (and not related to D&D) is if someone's peer group of friends develop some weirdly negative kind of groupthink where they accept each other's bad behaviour, but then try to extend it outside their circle of friends and wonder why people are reacting badly to it.

And this does happen with gamer groups from time to time. More common, perhaps, is the unspoken belief that no one in the group should NEED social contact with people outside their hobby...

That's kind of why I didn't go on a date until I was 20, I think.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

I think in the end growing up is painful for all, but also fun. It is a chaos of emotions. I do not belive there is one path any better then anouther emotionally... if they get some more cereibrial activity then perhaps they will survive in the world after.

Quite so. My feeling was that steering a kid away from any interest that isn't actively harmful or illegal is wrong, provided you stick around to regulate. I'd let my kids play World of Warcraft, but not if they were playing 8 hours a day, sort of thing.

When you restrict activities based on whether or not people think they're "cool," well, you might as well chuck out chess and science too, right?

[the-codger.livejournal.com]

Science is for evil geniouses anyway.

[the-codger.livejournal.com]

Truth be told all anyone needs is me. Everyone else just dilutes the experience.

That does seem to be common. Sorta like a social commune away from the world. There is something to be said about not being protected in that way. When I mention that part where I am not proud of in my post below, there was no single more defining moment then when I came out. I went a total backlash of who I was and realized what I wanted in life. In essence I "found myself". I took the confidence of the dark time but added it with a very strict moral base... which I have admittedly softened over time. The process however lead me from being a "poor" student to a "honors" student and go on to a successful time in university and a reasonable successful go at life thus far.

Sometime I can imagine it is hard to watch your child suffer, but oddly enough, it was the sheltered existence I was living before that lead me to my eventual downfall. So really it is hard to be sure what is right. What is that expression about eating a little dirt everyday.... I donno.... and I am not even close to someone who should talk about parenting, but I guess sometimes you have to let your child fall so they learn how to get back up again.

[neosis.livejournal.com]

As weird as it seems, I don't think I was really that popular or unpopular in High School, I got along with most and the only people I had recurring problems with were some of the more miscreant stoners. I did get bullied from time to time, but I stood up for myself, and on the one occasion where it really came to violence I messed the bully's face up even if I lost the fight. Then I pressed charges against him, which apparently violated the terms of a previous agreement. I was surprised to find out the officer who took my report knew the guy by name and knew where he lived (because he'd picked him up before).

Anyway, I started an RPG club at my high school, the people in it were mostly social misfits. Not necessarily people who couldn't fit, but mostly people who just didn't. Some were just quiet or shy by nature, and some were complete oddballs and some were even just annoying as hell. But we let everyone play as long as they played by the rules.

The most interesting thing to me was the club that I started was still running about 10 years after I graduated from High School. Sometimes it's nice to see you've made a bit of a difference.

Paul Graham on Why Nerds Are Unpopular

[pxtl.livejournal.com]

A good hypothesis on the subject. (http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html)

In short, school is like prison - students are there because they must be there, not because they want to be there. Thus, they invent a purpose for themselves. Some become keeners and fixate on academic success - some become hobbyists (ie. jocks, nerds, artsies, etc.) and fixate on extracurricular success... and some go through with no purpose at all. And that's where you get the prison mentality - the only goals are the social pyramid, dominating one's peers, accumulating friends, and buggery.

Basically, his idea is that kids (and prisoners) fall upon each other simply because they have nothing else to focus on.

[used_songs]

I teach at a magnet school that has pretty rigorous criteria in order for a student to get in. It's a math/science magnet, so most of the students are what kids in a regular US school would call geeks and nerds. The thing that gets me is that these kids turn on each other, bully each other, and stigmatize each other for being, I suppose, slightly nerdier. It's so weird. When I first came to this school I thought, "This is a place that would've been perfect for my friends and me when I was in school!" but the kids here go through the same bullying that we did!

[pyat.livejournal.com]

When I was 12, my parents sent me to a private Christian school in a wealthy suburb. I was a big kid, and I came from a large blue collar city, and was apparently regarded with some degree of fear.

Within weeks, I was bullying other kids. Not seriously, and not physically, but they'd given me a kind of power over them by being afraid of me, and I took advantage of it very quickly.

[used_songs]

Sometimes I think that teaching has exposed me to both the best and worst of human nature.