Why the world wags...

[pyat]

I need to preface my post with a note!

I realize that school systems are highly imperfect and never will be perfect for everyone. My own experience was far from ideal. They have progressively gotten better in many ways, though they sometimes take large steps back. Children in Britain, for example, are no longer indoctrinated with “the White Man’s Burden,” and children in Canada no longer learn that Riel was a traitor. Things can always get better, and always require change.

My comment is more about the philosophy or ideal of school rather than the reality. I recognize school as an unpleasant social experience for many people, including myself.

I also hope that I don't offend the person whose journal this was drawn from, by re-posting my comment here.



I’m going to pick out two quotes, here:

But in an everyday sense of the matter, you don't really need to know the chemical composition of Mercury. You don't need to know algebraic equations. You don't need to know who the governor of Michigan was in 1930...

The jobs that I want? the life skills that I need? have NOTHING to do with those, either. Why should I - why should ANY - kid have to waste time to learn skills that they'll forget upon entering adulthood?

You seem to be expressing two almost contradictory thoughts in your post. First, that schools should be institutes of learning. Second, that schools shouldn’t teach things you don’t think you’re going to need as an adult. Possibly you mean that schools should only train people according to their preference, aptitude, and eventual station?

Certainly, there is a lot of "non-essential" information presented, at least in the sense that a plumber is unlikely to ever need to recite the Gettysburg Address or know when World War II started. But, it seems to me that teaching only essentials is a lot more likely to produce a “cog,” than a process, however flawed, that tries earnestly to cram Shakespeare and Calculus and French into every brain it can reach.

The sometimes dreary rote learning of elementary school is, in a very real sense, “good for you,” in nearly the same way that gym class is good for you, even if you hate it and never intend to climb a rope or play football ever again in your life. It is, in a way, “good” for your brain in almost the same way the tiresome games of gym class were good for your body.

Every piece of information - every fact and truth - is essential to the construction of a context that allows you to understand society and the physical world. Every bit of data, every date, every fact – about how glass is made, about Bunker Hill, about quadratic equations, about the primary imports and exports of Tonga – provides you with another tiny pixel of an overall picture of the world. Aggregate knowledge of almost any kind makes it easier for you to react to new situations and comprehend new things, in the context of what has come before, and serve as an educated and informed member of society. It also equips you for self-actualization, making you better able to be the person you want to be, and do the things you like to do.

Each fact is connected to another fact, and can fire you down a line of inquiry that ends up in a place you never expected. The purpose of humanity, insofar as we have one, may be said to be a constant exploration of what is, and a constant refinement in our ability to understand it. “The purpose of man is to serve as a witness to Creation,” said a great agnostic/stoic.

There are no trivial facts, merely trivial applications of fact.

Yes, Calculus is hard. Shakespeare is hard. Chemistry is hard. French is hard.

All these things are intellectually hard in the same way that climbing a rope is physically hard and dreary. All new things are hard. Eventually, they become easy. If you run and jump and jog enough, even if it is hard at first, one day you will suddenly realize that your physical capacity has increased to the point where marvelous things can be done. Suddenly, you realize that you can climb a mountain or run a race, or even just go for a brisk hike in the woods without getting asthmatic (this last example I can personally attest to). Similarly, the mere application of mental muscle to the effort of comprehension of something which, at first blush, is dry and difficult, can lead the realization that the topic, once mastered, is not dry at all. How many high school students hate Shakespeare, or poetry, Dickens, until familiarity with the archaic language or sudden recognition of the reality below the imagery fired their imagination?

My favorite passage from T.H. White is:
“The best thing for being sad is to learn something. That is the only thing that never fails. You may grow old and trembling in your anatomies, you may lie awake at night listening to the disorder in your veins, you may miss your only love. You may see the world about you devastated by evil lunatics, or know your honour trampled in the sewers of baser minds. There is only one thing for it then - to learn. Learn why the world wags and what wags it. That is the only thing the mind can never exhaust, never alienate, never be tortured by, never fear or distrust and never dream of regretting.”

(There was more after this, but it was specific to the person, and not universal)

Comments

[kisekileia.livejournal.com]

"Every piece of information - every fact and truth - is essential to the construction of a context that allows you to understand society and the physical world. Every bit of data, every date, every fact – about how glass is made, about Bunker Hill, about quadratic equations, about the primary imports and exports of Tonga – provides you with another tiny pixel of an overall picture of the world. Aggregate knowledge of almost any kind makes it easier for you to react to new situations and comprehend new things, in the context of what has come before, and serve as an educated and informed member of society. It also equips you for self-actualization, making you better able to be the person you want to be, and do the things you like to do.

Each fact is connected to another fact, and can fire you down a line of inquiry that ends up in a place you never expected."

I really, really like that. A lot. It's the best explanation for why all of school is valuable that I've seen, I think.

[hillarygayle.livejournal.com]

I agree with this too, as does my husband (high school algebra/calculus teacher). And I would also add that when someone is in high school, we CANNOT KNOW what pieces of information might be useful later on in life. There is plain and simple no way to know that. When I was young & thought I was going to do something in communication all my life, which I then went on to get a degree in, I saw no need whatsoever for algebra. And then I got into the ambitious, high speed world of mass comm and realized...oh. I hated it. Damn. So I am now going back to school to be an RN, and guess what? Dosage calculations? They're algebra. Trying to say that one type of fact is going to be useful and another isn't, across the board for everyone? Not possible.

[pwned-kisa.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD! I'M SO OFFENDED! HOW COULD YOU REPOST YOUR OWN WORDS IN YOUR OWN JOURNAL?!?! Pfft.

Let's just say that I disagree and leave it at that. I said my piece, you said yours, and it's all done.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

That's fair! Squeak. :)

[oakthorne.livejournal.com]

As a counterpoint to nothing in particular...

- I dropped out of high school. It was atrociously dull, filled with abusive people and apathetic administrators and used a system of education wholly at odds with the way I learned. I received an education in spite of my schooling.

- Our jobs sound suspiciously similar in perks. :D

- I attended a year and a half of university, after getting my GED. I found it filled with academic requirements that I should never have to have taken (especially in classes where I was, as a precise example, teaching my classmates how to identify passive voice after a literal week of our instructor failing to do so), surrounded by people with more of an interest in getting drunk and laid (in whichever order that might happen) far more than anything in a book or on a computer screen, and designed under the assumption that one is a student with a parent or set of parents who are paying for one to attend, with all one's cost of living and such tended to either by those parental money vaults or massive loans that someone with my socio-economic background could never get, rather than actually working to do things like buy my books and pay tuition as well as pay for the roof over my head and the food in my pantry. It did not, as one might surmise, go well.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

What do they say about anecdata?

For the most part, the more education you have, the more money you're going to earn and the more opportunities for advancement will be accessible to you. Since that is an average rather than absolute, there are exceptions to it, people who do well, even extremely well, without much in the way of formal education. But they're far rarer than the people who do really well WITH a formal education. The stats are skewed at the other end, too - the number of people with a good formal education who live below the poverty line is dramatically lower than the number of people without high school diplomas who live below the poverty line.

You know all of this, of course. My point is that the main thrust of Piet's post still stands.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

*nods* The last bit was specific to the person in question, and I've removed it. You are very different from her.

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

or massive loans that someone with my socio-economic background could never get

So, wait, you're too poor to get student loans? I got, like, a third of mine in bursaries due to poorness...

[kisekileia.livejournal.com]

A point worth noting about this is that, if you are older than Piet and Erin, and possibly even if you are there age, doors were open to people with limited education when you were young that are not open to them now. People could be hired with limited education for decent jobs twenty or thirty years ago, and thus bright people with limited education from that age cohort are now in highly responsible positions. When their underlings hire for entry-level positions, resumes from people with the aforementioned bright people's educational credentials are automatically thrown out.

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

ore likely, I’d be living in an apartment, working at a grocery store, and trying to escape from reality as much as possible.

Well, I'm not working in a grocery store. I do have my BA.

Then again, working part-time doesn't allow for the best opportunities.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

I've actually removed that section as it was specific to a particular person.

[amarafox.livejournal.com]

I like living in an apartment :D

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I should have prefaced that with "crappy."

I liked living in a nice apartment, though I also like having a garden. :)

[zenten.livejournal.com]

I like what you said, but it doesn't seem to really address the complaints that you quoted. Not that I know the full context of those complaints.

Still, saying that the current education system is largely harmful doesn't mean that in theory education can't be a very good thing. It also *really* depends on the person. I liked the structure that school provided, and I've been kind of flailing without it. For other people it is stifling.

[pwned-kisa.livejournal.com]

For a limited time, I'll leave this open, for those of you who are interested in the post that sparked this, so you have some reference. http://pwnedkitten.livejournal.com/297269.html (which, in turn, was sparked by a post from velvetpage)

[easyalchemy.livejournal.com]

I was lucky in life - while I attended a truly terrible elementary school, there was one teacher there - Lyndon Kelsey - whose love of learning and reading and history and the earth broke through the dull itinerary set by this horrible school and pushed my love of reading in new directions. What would I be without him? I can't tell you. What would I be without the horrible awfulness of the rest of school as a counterpoint? I can't tell that, either.

In highschool I was once again very lucky, and had Mr. Alan Thorne, who taught me many things, but most of all taught my talk-backing, rebellious, debating 15-year-old self that school isn't there to teach you information; school is there to teach you how to learn. That's all. It doesn't matter if you don't remember a single 'fact,' as long as you remember how to learn when you need to.

He also taught me that right-wingers are thinking people too, mostly, and that one should honour the achievements of even a person whom you deeply dislike. He had a picture of Kim Campbell in his classroom (along with lots of other people), and when I questioned it, saying that she sucked (essentially), he said that however I felt about her, she was still Canada (and North America's) first female leader, and deserved her place in history.

School is difficult, but most things worth doing are, and what one gains is not necessarily grades or money or things, but experience.

[commanderteddog.livejournal.com]

More likely, I’d be living in an apartment

I live in a very nice apartment that's awesome and cute and full of MST3K but lacks a couch. BE GONE, YOU APARTMENT HATER, YOU! :O

[pyat.livejournal.com]

You live in a nice apartment in Toronto! I should have said "lousy apartment in the North End".

Also...

How can you watch MST3K without a couch? :)

[bodhifox.livejournal.com]

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Robert A. Heinlein

A well rounded and useful education is crucial. However, it does not depend necessarily on schooling. I know plenty of people who have attained multiple degrees that couldn't find their way out of a paper bag. I don't have a degree. Maybe I'd be making more money if I had proven I can go through an entire degree program. But I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be any happier, or capable, or more intelligent. Of course,YMMV. As you said, you're addressing an ideal.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

As you said, you're addressing an ideal.

Yeah, the bit about that was specific to one person - I've removed it from the essay, and should have left it out of the public post entirely, as my FL is full of exceptional people. :)

[relee.livejournal.com]

The first year of any real degree program is liquid hell designed to weed out the weak and the spoiled rich children. The half or less of class that survives that first year goes on to have a much easier time through whatever remains.

A lot of businesses aren't interested in what you learned in those two or three years after, they're interested in knowing you didn't choke in the first year.

Or so I understand. ^.^

[lee-in-limbo.livejournal.com]

I've always believed in a well-rounded education, formal or otherwise, and frankly, if our schools became strictly vocational, I'd be trying to get someone voted out of office. When we lose sight of the importance of learning cultural and scientific areas of human endeavour, we start to fail as a society. I believe that whole-heartedly.

That said, I can understand how some people might feel alienated by the education system. I consider that a failure of the system to encourage teachers to use different strategies to reach out to students who have trouble grasping the curriculum. No student is a lost cause in the hands of a skilled and perceptive teacher.

I believe we need to ensure that students who are having problems get the attention they need to progress. It doesn't help to treat them like idiots and let them sink into a defeatist attitude. We understand about learning disabilities and dyslexia and the like now. I can't see why our system doesn't have more tools and staff in place to take care of those who are willing to try but don't know how.

We make all kinds of noise about wanting to keep enough money in our education system, and yet we keep voting in people who allow school budgets to get slashed so low that programs and staff are cut; there doesn't even seem to be even a short term benefit to it. We've just become too short-sighted about what's important in this country. Too many of us reflecting the values and opinions of our grandparents, who grew up in an age when very few benefitted from education.

This is a completely different world we live in now, and solid educational background is about the only thing that can get you a respectable job these days (unless your father owns the store, so to speak). It's either that, or you work menial tasks and lover-middle management jobs for the rest of your life.

I had a hell of a time reading Dickens and Shakespeare in school, and I had a terrible time in math, never daring to take any higher sciences that required strong math grades. It also kept me clear of business and economics courses, which I could dearly have used. My career path has been hobbled at every turn because of the problems I've had getting the training I've needed to get and keep respectable, well-paying, safe work. I've learned plenty of things since leaving school, but I'll always regret that I wasn't able to get more from my education than I did. So many doors closed to me because what I learned in school wasn't broad enough to show me what to do in the career fields I've ended up in. So few teachers who could get through to me and really show me what I needed to know. What I wouldn't give for some mentoring now.

Lee.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

I had the same issues with science, math, and French. I failed French a number of times, and never got past Grade 11 general level math. I took only history and general information courses at university, and did not apply myself to them. I regret all that in retrospect. Until grade 12, I wanted to be a scientist. I decided on journalism because it was a LOT easier.

[kianir.livejournal.com]

I have a great respect for learning and knowledge. I have some respect for some types of education. My preschool and kindergarten was a private Montessori school that taught me how to learn. The rest of my education? Not so hot. In fact I'd call the whole system, from American public education through high school, to college and university, pure bullshit.

Education and learning are loosely linked here at best, and is what irritates me most; any fool with rich parents can get an education, and get a job with it. What we actually *need* are people with learning and knowledge, not servility and parentage.

Learning: incredibly important
Education: furthering the oligarchy

Unfortunately the system is self-supporting, self-furthering and unlikely to ever change significantly in this country.

[pwned-kisa.livejournal.com]

YES to this comment.

[archai.livejournal.com]

You came very near to saying this outright, but didn't quite. I'd like to be so crass as to go ahead and do it, if I may, so nobody misses it: like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, the more pieces you have, the more you can fit together.

I had a very good public high school. I paid attention. Having been out in the wide world nine or ten years now, it still shocks me occasionally what other fully-functional adults do not know or can't piece together.

Having had, and paid attention to, a well-rounded high school education, I can piece a very great deal together. Ask warphammer. I've been to museums with him, and I think bored him nearly to tears standing in front of a turbine cutaway or a mockup of Boeing's multi-plate brake shoe assembly for airliners or an old Pratt & Whitney turbo-compounded radial engine figuring out exactly how all the parts were supposed to work. I can generally extract far, far more than the little info-blurb by the exhibit. In fact, there have been times I've spotted some little inconspicuous bizarre-looking linkage, figured out how it was supposed to work, drug him over and showed him, and it ended up being some awesome little feature that both of us thought should've been explained in the blurb, but wasn't.

This is from a high school education.

An acquaintance of mine from the UK is really into US politics. Unfortunately he's also really rabidly liberal, and subscribes to as many right-wing-fringe fundamentalist action group newsletters as he can, which tends to keep him that way. He also has no idea of our political history, so he seemed for a while to think that we all believed like his newsletters and were bound to keep chasing Republican ideology until it killed us. I've had to take him aside and school him more than once on how we're really not all a bunch of red-meat right-wingers, and that the presidency and congressional majorities seldom stay aligned for long (this was pre-2006 midterms, naturally). Lacking the history he needed for context, he couldn't reasonably interpret current events. I suffered no such lack, because I had a well-rounded high school education.

I've forgotten far and away the bulk of my chemistry education, but I tend to hang with a smart crowd still. When lost in some discussion on the internets of, say, some new polymer that's used in the bushings on the Mars rovers, I still at least have enough of a leg up to know where to go hunting on Wikipedia if I really want to find out more.

In short, almost without exception, though I complained at the time, almost everything I studied in high school has come back to help me out again at some point later in life. There was nothing wasted in my education. What's more, I find that the more I continue to learn as I grow older, the easier and easier a process that is. I have more places the farther I go where I can attach new knowledge to things I already know.

To take this a bit further, especially in places like engineering, there are so many, many different inter-disciplinary ties that if you don't have a reasonable footing in practically everything, you are eventually bound to run up against a hard spot you won't be able to get through in the vocation (or hobby!) you eventually choose. To say that time is wasted in studying things you don't feel at the time you'll need later is a serious, serious fallacy.

[catsarah.livejournal.com]

what other fully-functional adults do not know or can't piece together

i've skimmed most of this so my apologies if this seems to be a non sequitorious brain fart of some sort.

my niece (who is 15 years my junior) was a governor general's bronze medallion award winner coming out of highschool with near straight "A"s. i'm often shocked about how much this woman doesn't know about certain things and what conclusions she can't draw from reasonable evidence.

however, i'm also amazed at what she can do. while she can't seem to retain information about her immediate environment it seems, she can sit and talk hight maths and quantum physics with my brother, all of which for the most part goes over my head.

she and i both graduated university (we're the only folks in my immediate family that have) with the same degree. i personally think she wasted her talent, all for the want of keeping her scholarships.

and i still feel, other than my skill at typing, that i learned more from my own curiosity and going after knowledge in my own way, than i ever garnered in either highschool or university. (okay, i take that back a bit, i did learn how to learn and research and ask questions). and i think that's the main difference with my niece and i. she was educationally isolated with little real world experience because she was always studying and didn't have much if any of a social life.

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

Many have marked the speed at which Muad'Dib learned the necessities of Arrakis. The Bene Gesserit, of course, know the basis of this speed. For the others, we can say that Muad'Dib learned rapidly because his first training was in how to learn. And the first lesson of all was the basic trust that he could learn. It is shocking to find how many people do not believe they can learn, and how many more believe learning to be difficult. MuadDib knew that every experience carries its lesson.

I believe we go through public education to learn how to deal with assholes. I mean, if there was another reason, surely they'd just mail us homework and we'd mail back the reports?