Why Canadians seem to complain about Americans so much...

[pyat]

From a comment in another journal - some thoughts. My comment should in no way be taken to mean that I say, "Heck yeah, this is why we should hate all y'all!" It's a description of status quo, and part of the reason it exist:

While you never hear anyone say bad about Canada, there is certainly a history of general thoughtlessness or outright antipathy towards Canadians on the part the United States as a whole.

Partly, it has been political and military. I'll talk about that a bit first, but I want to assure you it's not as big an issue these days.

In 1895, Theodore Roosevelt wrote "the greatest boon I could confer upon this nation (would be) an immediate war with Great Britain for the conquest of Canada... I will do my very best to bring about the day."

From the American Revolution onward through the 19th century American politicans often spoke explicitly of "liberating" Canada, or annexing all or part of it in the name of Manifest Destiny. The Articles of Confederation from 1777 assumed the Canadian colonies would join.

There were also a number of military incursions (mostly unofficial) into Canada in the 19th century, in the support of local unrest against the British Crown. Often, these were condemned by Washington (such as the cross border raids by Irish American-Fenians) but also sort of tacitly permitted to continue. I beleive there were incursions by Confederate and Union troops alike during the Civil War.

Diplomatic disputes between England and the U.S. after WWI led to the development of "War Plan Red," a detailed plan for the invasion of Canada. While they were not widely known then, they show up in the news now and again up here as a curiousity piece.

Obviously, things changed after WWII, and what Canadians most fear now is a gradual loss of independence or ability to retain our sovereignty, and the perception that the U.S. just doesn't care.

For example, border states will sometimes do things like divert rivers without the approval of the Canadian government. Recent similar incidents include live fire wargame exercises in the Great Lakes - something specifically forbidden by old treaty agreements. Then, there is the U.S. refusal to acknowledge Canadian claims to various parts of the Arctic Circle.

U.S. troops or ships have been known to undertake exercises in the Canadian north without getting permission - even in areas the U.S. acknowldges as Canadian. In fact, I believe the main duty of the Canadian Rangers is to monitor U.S. military incursions.

On the more paranoid side - I'm told the U.S. recognizes fresh water as a "strategic resouce," and under some interpretations of the Carter Doctrine, this would open up the possible of an invasion to seize fresh water. And, in fact, in the late 1990s several national media outlets reported that the CIA had current plans for just such a possibility, though I'm sure those were more mental exercises than anything.

Speaking of the CIA, folks up here still remember MKULTRA.

However, for most Canadians these may be secondary to the sort of unconcious cultural arrogance evidenced by the U.S. You say you never hear anyone say anything bad about Canada, and I'm sure you don't hear anything on a daily basis. However, WE never hear Americans say anything good about Canada that isn't slightly patronizing or ironic - in the mass media, at least. Canada is America's amusing and slightly retarded little brother. Right-wing political pundits say much worse things, but then, they hate everyone.

The U.S. government is sometimes rather unpleasant to the Canadian government. Under Bush, your ambassador has been known to dictate policy to Canada, or openly criticize the Prime Minister's stance on certain policies - angrily so, in some cases. This gets reported. It builds antipathy.

Let's not forget about the time Lyndon Johnson grabbed Lester B. Pearson by the lapels and roared "Stop pissing on my goddamn carpet, Les!" because Pearson called for a negotiated end to the Vienam War. Or, how Nixon called Trudeau an asshole and a commie. To which Trudeau, quite properly, noted that he'd been called worse things by better people.

Back to the cultural point! Let me provide two media examples, to show you what respect and attention it appears Canadians are given by U.S. media outlets. (And yes, these are media outlets, not people, but most Canadians are exposed to American attitudes through the media, remember).

First, "Never Cry Wolf." A world-wide bestselling novel by Farley Mowat, who for a time was sort of looked upon as the Canadian Ernest Hemmingway... except less of a bastard. The book is credited with almost single-handedly changing conservation attitudes towards wolves. It's about Mowat's time as a researcher in the Yukon.

Disney made a movie about it - an excellent movie - in 1983. It won awards. Farley Mowat - and everyone in Canada - was a little peeved to see the movie, and find that Disney had changed the name of the protagonist from the real world "Farley Mowat" to a fictional American character, undertaking work in Alaska.

Why? Who knows.

It didn't help that, two years later, Mowat went on a world book tour... and was barred entry to the United States possibly because of his membership in a "left-wing socialist party", to whit, the New Democratic Party, a respected national federal party. This was perceived, right or wrong, as a deliberate snub against a national hero, and it also led to worldwide media attention - but was almost utterly ignored in the U.S. aside from some fluff pieces in the news.

Second film - the 2000 adventure/war film, "U-571." It's about a brave crew of Americans who capture a U-Boat and seize the Enigma code machine. It's a true story, one of the great adventures of the war, and the capture of the Enigma machine in many ways helped turn the tide of the war.

Except, of course, that the people who did it were British commandos and Canadian sailors, some of whom are still alive, IIRC. And they did it six months before the U.S. entered the war.

Why were they changed to Americans? Was the story better because they didn't have accents? I don't know. There are a multitude of examples, but this comment is already long enough.

Suffice to say that I have NEVER met a Canadian who professed to hate, or even dislike, individual Americans simply for their nationality. We DO have a national grudge - sometimes a silly one - against the US as a whole, but not against its people.

By the way, I'm wondering about the age of the people whose comments you may have read. Remember that a Canadian in his or her 20s was in highschool when Bush was elected...

Comments

[leonard-arlotte.livejournal.com]

All that, and you didn't even mention the 1935 plan to INVADE Canada (http://www.glasnost.de/hist/usa/1935invasion.html) to stop the commies!

Though I would point out that not all literature written by Americans has been anti-canadian. Elizabeth Bear (from Connecticut) wrote a series of cyberpunk novels (http://www.elizabethbear.com/jenny.html) in which American Society has collapsed, leaving Canada and China as the world's superpowers.

[leonard-arlotte.livejournal.com]

No wait, you did mention it, as 'War Plan Red'

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Oh, certainly - people just remember a snub more than "due praise" or something.

[brand-of-amber.livejournal.com]

Having lived on both sides of the boarder I can also say there are things that while they aren't America's fault, per say, also deepen the feelings.

America is still, despite everything, the dominant super-power on the face of the earth. But I'm not even talking about military or money, though both of those sure count. The thing about America is its media. American media saturates and informs every corner of the globe. In little tiny villages in the Deccan in central India you can go into a shop and there will be a gaggle of young men and women watching Beyonce on TV.

American media caries, in all its confused and resplendently plumed forms, American values and American messages. It is a huge fucking culture machine, and it may have the greatest unacknowledged power in changing the face of global relations in the last 20 years. It isn't an easy thing to assimilate without being assimilated, and even the best have problems with it.

For Canada its worse. Much of Canada speaks the same language as the States, is part of much of the same industrial, commercial, ecological, and geographical complex. We share a lot of joint history, and have our hands deeply in each others pockets. So there is very little barrier to a seep between American and Canadian cultures -- a one way seep.

Most of the Canadians that I know watch more American made media than Canadian made. Most Canadians I know watched West Wing, are following the American election to some degree, can quote Simpsons, know more American bands than Canadian, and so on. Most Americans I know know that Ottawa is the capital and that we've got a Parliament, but have to think to come up with the name of the Prime Minister, have never heard of Rick Mercer, think Bryan Adams sings good old American Rock n Roll, and probably couldn't name a Canadian TV show if you put a gun to their head.

Americans get to not know about Canada because America is the dominant partner in the relationship. Canadians don't get to not know about America. With siblings thats a great way to breed bitterness, and as it turns out it works with cultures too.

[unselighe.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not most Americans.

Teddy Roosevelt was an asshole. Wilson is responsible for the imperialistic attitude that permeates the US gov't today. "Making the world safe for democracy (and capitalism!)" continues to be the buzz-phrase almost 100 years later.

You (and Pyat) are spot-on.

[relee.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how conciously the U.S. wages its culture war, but here in Canada the government is very concious of it. For example, Canadian cable t.v. has to show at least 70% Canadian content.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

This is very well said, sir!

[vandringar.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting that! That was very informative. :)

[pyat.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! And thank YOU!

[pwned-kisa.livejournal.com]

So, I totally haven't read this post yet. (Probably do that when I get home.) But, I wanted to say, while there might be historical reasons for people dissing on the USA (oh, hell, there are current reasons for them to be doing that!) For the most part, people here just don't care enough about Canada (or, really the vast majority of the world) to dis them.

With the exception of humor songs, I can't think of a single example of where "we" say bad things about other countries, except in how they react to us. I think that that might be a bit of where he was coming from on his post.

"We" don't dis "you guys." But, when we see/hear comments about "us," it's almost always the same: "Oh, America's f*ed up, and they're all idiots." It gets wearying.

[pwned-kisa.livejournal.com]

A'ight. Just read the post. And... ...I got nothing. It goes back to the philosophy that Saint kitten the Great once passed on: "People taken in groups are assholes."

And, really, that's it.

Yes, America has it's share of national asshatery. However, taken one-on-one, we're not of that kind. So, then, reading the comments about "Americans" gets us annoyed, because we're being grouped and labeled. Stereotyped. Which isn't something that anyone likes.

And, when "we" read comments that aren't being made by the media (which I have other issues with) or politicians, but by "real people," that basically say "Boo!" to the US, it's (as I said previously,) hurtful and wearying.

Yes, there is media hype. Yes, there have been officials who are asshats. But, the average American doesn't go, "Oh, hey, let's dis Canada!" ...normally it's, "oh, hey, doesn't Canada have maple syrup? They probably have great pancakes." Yet, most of the comments I'm reading (you and those Canadians actually on my flist excluded) are completely anti-American. Just, kinda not cool.

[aslowhite.livejournal.com]

*headdesk*

I'm sorry we're so fucking obnoxious, pyat. If it's any consolation, I kind of have a grudge against the U.S., too.

[BTW, Farley Mowat was full of shit has been widely discredited by the majority of serious wolf biologists...]

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Yes, he was "for a time" considered a sort of national hero... now he's just that curmudgeonly old dude who at least partly made a bunch of stuff up, but who can spin a good yarn!

[dagoski.livejournal.com]

Ah, Canada, the land of all eleven to thirteen year olds' imaginary girlfriends.

Canada is also the land of well run cities from what I've seen of British Columbia and Ontario. They way US conservatives tell it tough, Canada is three thousand miles of Camden.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Hey, it was also the land of all MY imaginary girlfriends when I was that age!

[relee.livejournal.com]

Yeah! Please get the hell out of OUR Northwest Passage, you Southern Dogs!, thank you! ;)

[zorinlynx.livejournal.com]

We're trying to do better! Honest!

And personally I've always loved everything I've seen about Canada. Even before certain bias might have creeped in.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

You sneaky Yankee cat! You're trying to steal our wimmin!

[the-vulture.livejournal.com]

A few things still burn me.

First, the Softwood Lumber tax, judged illegal by a number of tribunals and other organizations. That's a sticking point with most British Columbians (including myself) and certainly a source of bitterness, especially now that the mountain pine beetle is now in the process of gutting that industry.

Second, Albertans are probably not going to look back with fondness over how long American meat markets were closed to Canadian beef over a single incidence of BSE. Protecting American beef stocks or protecting American beef markets? Many up north are inclined to think the later.

Third, Iraq. It's bad enough to called 'coward' and 'traitor' for having our own opinion about that war. It's even worse considering that WE WERE AMONGST THE FIRST TO JUMP INTO AFGHANISTAN WITH THE AMERICANS RIGHT AFTER 9/11!!! Hell, we were right there for the Americans the moment those planes hit, taking in all the flights that couldn't land, providing shelter for airplane loads of stranded passengers, providing emergency assistance, etc. Yet the moment we said "Hey, we don't think Iraq is such a good idea," WE were the ones that got treated, by much of America (media AND citizenry) as 'ungrateful bastards.'

No, these kind of things don't foster bitterness at all...

[nottheterritory.livejournal.com]

There is also a significant question as to whether our Afghanistan commitments would have left us with a force to intervene in Iraq even if we'd had a more hawkish government at the time.

[slwatson.livejournal.com]

Dear Pyat,

When you start generalizing about other nations by complaining that said nations generalize you, you have officially shown that you totally fail to grasp the massive paradox you walked into. While we're at it, though, a huge portion of Noggin's programming is Canadian in origin, and there's also programming from the UK, Australia and even Iceland. US programming on Noggin is actually the minority. Does that mean I get to accuse you of waging cultural warfare on the US by saturating our pre-schoolers with your media?

Seriously, this broad generalization gets really old. It kinda does. Mostly because, despite token comments, you're tarring and feathering a whole nation with one brush. We're cool with it when you hate on our president, because we can't stand the asshole either -- if we could take back the last eight years, most of us would. We Americans are entitled to make mistakes too, though, you know, you've somehow failed to notice that we also learn from them. Which is why we may have a black president elected, as is right, in a comparatively short time after the civil rights movement.

But while we're at it, Teddog is just as irritated by you tarring all Canadians with a national grudge that not all of them hold. So, not only are you generalizing my nation, but your own.

Seriously, man. Next time you wanna write a great conspiracy discourse, do try not to stereotype either side. Because I desperately want us and Canada to be on good terms. I wanna see my country (and yours too) undo the damage of the Bush administration and get the fuck back to being neighbors and friends. I want people living in border towns to be able to cross the steet without being arrested for it. I wanna be able to visit my friend, and have her visit me, without cultural paranoia.

And you are not doing anything to help that happen. So, come off it. I'm not going to apologize for a crime I didn't commit -- generalizing about your culture, because I never have -- but I'm thinking you owe one to the people you generalize. On both sides of the border.

Fail, Pyat.

-Steff

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Steff, I think you've misread the point of the post. Really. I, for example, do NOT have a grudge against Americans as individuals, nor even as an institution. I am explaining why some Canadians DO, and why a culture of cynicism has built up here.

I am NOT saying that it is right. Not at all.

[mar2nee.livejournal.com]

I think this is a thoughtful and well-balanced post, Piet. I never even knew about a bunch of it!
What were you responding to?

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Oh, a comment about no longer wanting to move to Canada because Canadians seem to dislike USians.

[redregon.livejournal.com]

very interesting read, certainly.

though, i think amidst all the media and such, canadians tend to be the pinnacle of Ford Prefect's entry in that we're... Mostly harmless.

though, if it ever did get to the point where Canada was ever truly invaded and annexed, i'd certainly work to try and get refugee status in the U.K.. though, to be 100% honest, i have to say that i've been kinda watching the apparent decline of canadian culture (americanization?) to the point where i'm wondering exactly what the 49th parrellel stands for.

in a way, it does feel like we're becoming little america.

(*end drunken rambling*)

[rowyn]

Wow, those media examples are appalling. O_o Sheesh. Hollywood really sucks at times.

loving our American cousins

[(Anonymous)]

I don't get it either but it has something to do with teh grass being greener. It is sort of like when the father-of-the-bride brings his new young wife to the wedding. You can bet that no matter how ugly the bride is and how drab her mother is...everyone will be bitch'n about the stepmom, especially if she is gorgeous and if she is polite and sincere - forget it - she's in for a night of burning ears with everyone chatting about how big her butt is and how many pieces of cake she ate and how could she wear strapless sandles with that dress and and and. We all want to be the hot young wife and we hate orselves for it. Same as Canadians with our American cousins.

Kathleen Molloy, author - Dining with Death

Re: loving our American cousins

[pyat.livejournal.com]

An interesting perspective, O Mysterious Stranger!