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Why Canadians seem to complain about Americans so much...
From a comment in another journal - some thoughts. My comment should in no way be taken to mean that I say, "Heck yeah, this is why we should hate all y'all!" It's a description of status quo, and part of the reason it exist:
While you never hear anyone say bad about Canada, there is certainly a history of general thoughtlessness or outright antipathy towards Canadians on the part the United States as a whole.
Partly, it has been political and military. I'll talk about that a bit first, but I want to assure you it's not as big an issue these days.
In 1895, Theodore Roosevelt wrote "the greatest boon I could confer upon this nation (would be) an immediate war with Great Britain for the conquest of Canada... I will do my very best to bring about the day."
From the American Revolution onward through the 19th century American politicans often spoke explicitly of "liberating" Canada, or annexing all or part of it in the name of Manifest Destiny. The Articles of Confederation from 1777 assumed the Canadian colonies would join.
There were also a number of military incursions (mostly unofficial) into Canada in the 19th century, in the support of local unrest against the British Crown. Often, these were condemned by Washington (such as the cross border raids by Irish American-Fenians) but also sort of tacitly permitted to continue. I beleive there were incursions by Confederate and Union troops alike during the Civil War.
Diplomatic disputes between England and the U.S. after WWI led to the development of "War Plan Red," a detailed plan for the invasion of Canada. While they were not widely known then, they show up in the news now and again up here as a curiousity piece.
Obviously, things changed after WWII, and what Canadians most fear now is a gradual loss of independence or ability to retain our sovereignty, and the perception that the U.S. just doesn't care.
For example, border states will sometimes do things like divert rivers without the approval of the Canadian government. Recent similar incidents include live fire wargame exercises in the Great Lakes - something specifically forbidden by old treaty agreements. Then, there is the U.S. refusal to acknowledge Canadian claims to various parts of the Arctic Circle.
U.S. troops or ships have been known to undertake exercises in the Canadian north without getting permission - even in areas the U.S. acknowldges as Canadian. In fact, I believe the main duty of the Canadian Rangers is to monitor U.S. military incursions.
On the more paranoid side - I'm told the U.S. recognizes fresh water as a "strategic resouce," and under some interpretations of the Carter Doctrine, this would open up the possible of an invasion to seize fresh water. And, in fact, in the late 1990s several national media outlets reported that the CIA had current plans for just such a possibility, though I'm sure those were more mental exercises than anything.
Speaking of the CIA, folks up here still remember MKULTRA.
However, for most Canadians these may be secondary to the sort of unconcious cultural arrogance evidenced by the U.S. You say you never hear anyone say anything bad about Canada, and I'm sure you don't hear anything on a daily basis. However, WE never hear Americans say anything good about Canada that isn't slightly patronizing or ironic - in the mass media, at least. Canada is America's amusing and slightly retarded little brother. Right-wing political pundits say much worse things, but then, they hate everyone.
The U.S. government is sometimes rather unpleasant to the Canadian government. Under Bush, your ambassador has been known to dictate policy to Canada, or openly criticize the Prime Minister's stance on certain policies - angrily so, in some cases. This gets reported. It builds antipathy.
Let's not forget about the time Lyndon Johnson grabbed Lester B. Pearson by the lapels and roared "Stop pissing on my goddamn carpet, Les!" because Pearson called for a negotiated end to the Vienam War. Or, how Nixon called Trudeau an asshole and a commie. To which Trudeau, quite properly, noted that he'd been called worse things by better people.
Back to the cultural point! Let me provide two media examples, to show you what respect and attention it appears Canadians are given by U.S. media outlets. (And yes, these are media outlets, not people, but most Canadians are exposed to American attitudes through the media, remember).
First, "Never Cry Wolf." A world-wide bestselling novel by Farley Mowat, who for a time was sort of looked upon as the Canadian Ernest Hemmingway... except less of a bastard. The book is credited with almost single-handedly changing conservation attitudes towards wolves. It's about Mowat's time as a researcher in the Yukon.
Disney made a movie about it - an excellent movie - in 1983. It won awards. Farley Mowat - and everyone in Canada - was a little peeved to see the movie, and find that Disney had changed the name of the protagonist from the real world "Farley Mowat" to a fictional American character, undertaking work in Alaska.
Why? Who knows.
It didn't help that, two years later, Mowat went on a world book tour... and was barred entry to the United States possibly because of his membership in a "left-wing socialist party", to whit, the New Democratic Party, a respected national federal party. This was perceived, right or wrong, as a deliberate snub against a national hero, and it also led to worldwide media attention - but was almost utterly ignored in the U.S. aside from some fluff pieces in the news.
Second film - the 2000 adventure/war film, "U-571." It's about a brave crew of Americans who capture a U-Boat and seize the Enigma code machine. It's a true story, one of the great adventures of the war, and the capture of the Enigma machine in many ways helped turn the tide of the war.
Except, of course, that the people who did it were British commandos and Canadian sailors, some of whom are still alive, IIRC. And they did it six months before the U.S. entered the war.
Why were they changed to Americans? Was the story better because they didn't have accents? I don't know. There are a multitude of examples, but this comment is already long enough.
Suffice to say that I have NEVER met a Canadian who professed to hate, or even dislike, individual Americans simply for their nationality. We DO have a national grudge - sometimes a silly one - against the US as a whole, but not against its people.
By the way, I'm wondering about the age of the people whose comments you may have read. Remember that a Canadian in his or her 20s was in highschool when Bush was elected...
While you never hear anyone say bad about Canada, there is certainly a history of general thoughtlessness or outright antipathy towards Canadians on the part the United States as a whole.
Partly, it has been political and military. I'll talk about that a bit first, but I want to assure you it's not as big an issue these days.
In 1895, Theodore Roosevelt wrote "the greatest boon I could confer upon this nation (would be) an immediate war with Great Britain for the conquest of Canada... I will do my very best to bring about the day."
From the American Revolution onward through the 19th century American politicans often spoke explicitly of "liberating" Canada, or annexing all or part of it in the name of Manifest Destiny. The Articles of Confederation from 1777 assumed the Canadian colonies would join.
There were also a number of military incursions (mostly unofficial) into Canada in the 19th century, in the support of local unrest against the British Crown. Often, these were condemned by Washington (such as the cross border raids by Irish American-Fenians) but also sort of tacitly permitted to continue. I beleive there were incursions by Confederate and Union troops alike during the Civil War.
Diplomatic disputes between England and the U.S. after WWI led to the development of "War Plan Red," a detailed plan for the invasion of Canada. While they were not widely known then, they show up in the news now and again up here as a curiousity piece.
Obviously, things changed after WWII, and what Canadians most fear now is a gradual loss of independence or ability to retain our sovereignty, and the perception that the U.S. just doesn't care.
For example, border states will sometimes do things like divert rivers without the approval of the Canadian government. Recent similar incidents include live fire wargame exercises in the Great Lakes - something specifically forbidden by old treaty agreements. Then, there is the U.S. refusal to acknowledge Canadian claims to various parts of the Arctic Circle.
U.S. troops or ships have been known to undertake exercises in the Canadian north without getting permission - even in areas the U.S. acknowldges as Canadian. In fact, I believe the main duty of the Canadian Rangers is to monitor U.S. military incursions.
On the more paranoid side - I'm told the U.S. recognizes fresh water as a "strategic resouce," and under some interpretations of the Carter Doctrine, this would open up the possible of an invasion to seize fresh water. And, in fact, in the late 1990s several national media outlets reported that the CIA had current plans for just such a possibility, though I'm sure those were more mental exercises than anything.
Speaking of the CIA, folks up here still remember MKULTRA.
However, for most Canadians these may be secondary to the sort of unconcious cultural arrogance evidenced by the U.S. You say you never hear anyone say anything bad about Canada, and I'm sure you don't hear anything on a daily basis. However, WE never hear Americans say anything good about Canada that isn't slightly patronizing or ironic - in the mass media, at least. Canada is America's amusing and slightly retarded little brother. Right-wing political pundits say much worse things, but then, they hate everyone.
The U.S. government is sometimes rather unpleasant to the Canadian government. Under Bush, your ambassador has been known to dictate policy to Canada, or openly criticize the Prime Minister's stance on certain policies - angrily so, in some cases. This gets reported. It builds antipathy.
Let's not forget about the time Lyndon Johnson grabbed Lester B. Pearson by the lapels and roared "Stop pissing on my goddamn carpet, Les!" because Pearson called for a negotiated end to the Vienam War. Or, how Nixon called Trudeau an asshole and a commie. To which Trudeau, quite properly, noted that he'd been called worse things by better people.
Back to the cultural point! Let me provide two media examples, to show you what respect and attention it appears Canadians are given by U.S. media outlets. (And yes, these are media outlets, not people, but most Canadians are exposed to American attitudes through the media, remember).
First, "Never Cry Wolf." A world-wide bestselling novel by Farley Mowat, who for a time was sort of looked upon as the Canadian Ernest Hemmingway... except less of a bastard. The book is credited with almost single-handedly changing conservation attitudes towards wolves. It's about Mowat's time as a researcher in the Yukon.
Disney made a movie about it - an excellent movie - in 1983. It won awards. Farley Mowat - and everyone in Canada - was a little peeved to see the movie, and find that Disney had changed the name of the protagonist from the real world "Farley Mowat" to a fictional American character, undertaking work in Alaska.
Why? Who knows.
It didn't help that, two years later, Mowat went on a world book tour... and was barred entry to the United States possibly because of his membership in a "left-wing socialist party", to whit, the New Democratic Party, a respected national federal party. This was perceived, right or wrong, as a deliberate snub against a national hero, and it also led to worldwide media attention - but was almost utterly ignored in the U.S. aside from some fluff pieces in the news.
Second film - the 2000 adventure/war film, "U-571." It's about a brave crew of Americans who capture a U-Boat and seize the Enigma code machine. It's a true story, one of the great adventures of the war, and the capture of the Enigma machine in many ways helped turn the tide of the war.
Except, of course, that the people who did it were British commandos and Canadian sailors, some of whom are still alive, IIRC. And they did it six months before the U.S. entered the war.
Why were they changed to Americans? Was the story better because they didn't have accents? I don't know. There are a multitude of examples, but this comment is already long enough.
Suffice to say that I have NEVER met a Canadian who professed to hate, or even dislike, individual Americans simply for their nationality. We DO have a national grudge - sometimes a silly one - against the US as a whole, but not against its people.
By the way, I'm wondering about the age of the people whose comments you may have read. Remember that a Canadian in his or her 20s was in highschool when Bush was elected...
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And...
However, for most Canadians these may be secondary to the sort of unconcious cultural arrogance evidenced by the U.S. You say you never hear anyone say anything bad about Canada, and I'm sure you don't hear anything on a daily basis. However, WE never hear Americans say anything good about Canada that isn't slightly patronizing or ironic - in the mass media, at least. Canada is America's amusing and slightly retarded little brother. Right-wing political pundits say much worse things, but then, they hate everyone.
Sure, quantify with 'at least', but that really doesn't change the words preceding.
Those are two, but there are more. I don't know if you're projecting an unconscious bias, or if, like all of us are apt to do, just not wording things quite like you're meaning to.
Really. I, for example, do NOT have a grudge against Americans as individuals, nor even as an institution. I am explaining why some Canadians DO, and why a culture of cynicism has built up here.
I am NOT saying that it is right. Not at all.
How exactly do we combat cynicism when someone's saying, "Americans look at us like we're retards," and not saying, "American media has a pretty ugly set of biases, but don't often reflect the views of most of their nation?" Which is the truth. There's a reason why FOX News and CNN have such diametrically opposed views. There's a reason why Americans lean towards one or the other, usually whichever one comes closer to their own viewpoints. Many, many, many of us watch BBC World News now in lieu of our own bloody media -- in fact, it runs several times a day down here because of demand.
Not even in our own culture is there a definite, middle-of-the-road media outlet we can agree on. We do the best with what we're given. Trying to claim that any station's programming reflects American attitude is a seriously agonizing generalization -- we have a ton of stations and have to pick the best we can find out of the whole nasty mess. I'll allow that maybe you just misworded that statement, but in its current form, it struck me as being thoroughly unkind to a nation that is far from perfect, but not nearly so ignorant as we might have been in the past.
As I said, a ton of Noggin's programming is international. A whole crapload of us watch the Beeb. We'd watch the CBC, but most of us don't get it. I know a bunch of Americans who watched your election's debates in lieu of our own, when we could find them televised.
Most of all, my two best friends live in your country. Rach is a Canadian. Anna is an immigrant from the USSR who came here after a terribly dire time in her own nation of origin, and who schools in Manitoba, and plans on making her life there.
Finally, when one of my other friends, another Russian who still lives there was talking about where to move? I told her to move to Canada. Not because I don't love the US, or at least, what the ideal of the US is based on, but because *I* think Canada has so much going for it, in so many ways, that I can heartily recommend it for people who want to build a good life. Not without its flaws, but a great nation besides.
Personally, I think that view goes a lot further than cynicism, on both sides of the border.
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Similarly, Canadians "as a whole" have a grudge towards Americans. This does NOT mean that every single Canadian has a grudge, not perhaps even the majority.
As I noted to you in IM, I should perhaps have written this as a seperate essay, rather than reposting a comment without the context.
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I am curious because this is not the first time that I have heard that it is "better" to move to Canada than the states, the information though it second hand, and as I have no personal friends or family that is doing it from a country outside of North America I have nothing closer to pull from.
Reasons I have heard to date included that it is easier to do legally, and less culture shock due to our large areas of cultural grouping (hence why I go to certain areas of the city if I want to go shopping in a Chinese mall for example) I also heard it is easier to become a full citizen. So what points do you recommend Canada on over the states?
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But there are several points in Canada's favor when it comes to people being told it's better there. You're right that one is culture shock -- Canada is rather broadly diverse, and from my friends there and some additional reading, Canadian culture is far more accepting to immigrants. The U.S. has fostered something of a rather ugly bias in more recent years towards immigration. That might change (I hope it does; we're still a diverse nation and I'd like us to always be so), but right now it's just easier on a person's heart to go somewhere they're less likely to have people whispering behind their backs about their legality, even when they're employed and contributing.
Taxes aren't much higher in Canada than the US, but the benefits you gain from them are pretty damn good. Nationalized healthcare has its problems, no doubt -- the length of time it takes to schedule an appointment with a specialist, for one -- but for someone who's healthy and fit, and who likely wouldn't need that kind of intensive care, Canada's system allows you to get care without paying an outrageous amount of money. For instance, it's thousands of dollars down here just to set a broken arm and cast it. Slip on some ice, and you're paying for it over a whole year or more if you don't have insurance.
Schooling in Canada is far more affordable -- education down here currently costs an arm and a leg. I'm hoping this changes too, under Obama's leadership, but right now you can get an absolutely stellar education in Canada that you just can't afford in the United States.
One thing against Canada is that the cost of owning property is higher, and sometimes significantly higher, than it is down here. But apartment housing is about the same, so far as I've been able to tell.
Really, the US is a great nation. But the last eight years have taken such a toll on our relations with other nations, and even our relations with each other inside this nation that I just don't wanna recommend someone entering my country until things improve. Especially a friend. And while passport laws and the Bush doctrine of closing this border makes visiting friends much harder, right now, it's just better that new people wanting a chance at acceptance and a real chance go to Canada.
Then again, with Obama's election, I can sincerely and deeply hope that changes. One: Our border becomes friendly again, and two: The U.S. becomes more immigrant friendly.
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I don't want anyone to think I don't love the United States. But part of loving my nation is being able to look at it honestly, good and bad, and know it needs some work.